Stop doing “Sales” and Start Having Conversations with Nikki Rausch

Nikki Rausch: How did you get so lucky in life that you got this great opportunity? And they go, “Well, somebody I knew opened the store for me.” Like you hear that across the board. This is why, and I think you even mentioned this at the very beginning before you hit record, like the reason we have somebody in common is because you and this person are participating in an event that you guys showed up together live, right, at this event. So people pay money to buy their seats at the table. And then as much as you probably got out of whoever put on this event, as much as you probably got out of like the content, what you also took away was the connections that you made in that room. So when people open doors for you, that’s what you’re doing. You’re like making these connections that you will have a hard time making on your own. 

Joe Casabona: Recently, I sat down to dinner with my family when the doorbell rang. It was a door-to-door HelloFresh salesman. Yes, they exist. It wasn’t a scam, who wanted to make dinner easier for us, while ironically preventing me from eating my dinner. 

I immediately got frustrated for two reasons: One, it was dinner time and the interruption was unwelcome. But two, I had already told this guy’s partner, “No” several hours earlier. It was a conversation that was not only unwelcome, but it was already flat-out rejected once before. 

This sort of tactic is what gives sales a bad name, and why folks like me hate sales. But today’s guest, Nikki Rausch, is here to tell us that’s not at all how sales should work, and what we should be doing instead.

Listen for these top takeaways: Sales isn’t a one-way street. It’s a collaborative conversation that you have permission to enter into. And you get that permission by asking.

The person you’re speaking to has their own language. You need to tailor your offer to meet their needs and use their language. And never make assumptions. You can’t further a relationship without asking questions. Assumptions are driven by limiting beliefs. Questions lead to concrete answers. Plus, in the pro show, we talk about how to best deliver a great coaching experience. Honestly, I feel like I got my own little coaching call in the pro show.

So, if you want to become a member, you can sign up over at [streamlined.fm/join] or if you’re listening in Apple podcasts, you can just use the subscribe button right in the app to get access to add free extended versions of every episode of this show. 

I believe you’re really going to enjoy this conversation. I know. I did. And so without further ado, let’s get to the intro and then the interview.

Intro: Hey, everybody. And welcome to How I Built It, the podcast that helps busy solopreneurs and creators grow their businesses without spending too much time on it. I’m your host, Joe Casabona. And each week, I bring you interviews and case studies on how to build a better business through smarter processes, time management, and effective content creation. It’s like getting free coaching calls from successful solopreneurs. By the end of each episode, you’ll have one to three takeaways you can implement today to stop spending time in your business and more time on your business, or with your friends, your family reading, or however, you choose to spend your free time. 

Joe Casabona: All right. I am here with Nikki Rausch, CEO of SalesMaven. And I am really excited to talk about conversational sales and doing sales, probably the right way. Something I’m really bad at as I was a developer in a former life. Nikki, thanks for being here.

Nikki Rausch: Thanks for having me.  

Joe Casabona: I’m really excited to chat about this because again, this is something I’m really bad at, right? So, I recently wrote a newsletter that talked about having a pre-roll call to action for your podcast and equating that to being like the overly salesy person in a department store who like jumps right on top of you as soon as you walk in the doors. And so I think a lot of people hear the word sales and think of that or like the used car salesman or like the door-to-door solar panel people. I don’t know if you get those people. 

Nikki Rausch: I sure do.

Joe Casabona: Yeah. I always just tell them I rent and avoid that conversation. So first, let’s start with how do you define, sales. 

Nikki Rausch: So I will say that there’s a misconception in the marketplace that sales is something that you’re supposed to do to another person. And I define sales as sales is something you do with another person. It’s a collaborative conversation. 

Now, there are a few components that need to be in place in order for you to sell to another person. First and foremost, there needs to be an agreement. You need to have permission to enter into the conversation and propose something to somebody. And without that, if, and we all are on the receiving end of this all day long, it shows up in our emails, our text messages, our DMs, our phone, you know, voicemails, and people knocking on our front door, they don’t have permission to sell to us. And so our first instinct is to just go, like, “No”, you don’t have any rapport with me. I’m not interested. 

So, If you really want to be successful at sales, whether you consider yourself a salesperson or whether you just say like, I have this business, I’d like to bring some revenue in the door, There is going to be a sales component to it. But when you learn how to do it in a way that puts the relationship first, that builds on the foundation of rapport. It gets a lot easier to have sales conversations with people who are actually interested in having that conversation with you.

Joe Casabona: Yeah. I think that’s such a great way to frame it because like you’ve said, we’ve all been on the receiving end of this, right? Someone adds you on LinkedIn and then immediately tries to sell you on something like, “Hey…” Okay. Never. No, I’m not really interested.

Nikki Rausch: Yeah.

Joe Casabona: Even if I do need what you’re selling, I’m immediately not interested because…

Nikki Rausch: Yeah.

Joe Casabona: You haven’t taken the time to like, learn anything about me, right?

Nikki Rausch: They haven’t asked you any questions. They’re word-vomiting all over you about how awesome they are, how awesome their product is, and how you need it so desperately. They don’t even know you. How dare they tell you what you need and why you should buy their awesome product when you’ve expressed zero interest? And now in our society, it’s so easy for us to be like, no, kick you to the curb, delete, unlink to you, you know, whatever, block, whatever.  

Joe Casabona: Yeah. This reminds me of emails I get from people who are like, “Hey, I came across your website and you have like a real SEO problem”, and I’m like, that’s super…How did you find my website If I have an SEO problem? It seems like you found it okay.

Nikki Rausch: Yeah, good point.

Joe Casabona: So it’s like, you’re already kind of like, or the people who have great franchise opportunities for us. Have you gotten those?

Nikki Rausch: Oh yes. My latest one is how many people want to buy my business? I get probably two of those a day now.

Joe Casabona: Nice.

Nikki Rausch: Yes.

Joe Casabona: Wow, so good. Yeah. So, okay. It’s actually a collaborative conversation. You need to have permission to enter into the conversation. How do you get that permission?

Nikki Rausch: You ask for it. And I know that sounds like I’m giving you a simple answer, but one of the most missed opportunities in sales conversations is the person who wants to earn your business, the seller in this case, they don’t ask questions. They talk at you. They don’t talk with you. So you’ve got to ask a question.

So, for instance, if I reached out to you, I would say, “Joe, you know, is there any chance you’d be open to having a conversation about SEO and your website and the impact that you could make with a few changes?” Like I could ask you that question.

Now, you might still say like delete, or you might say, go, you know, go kick rock sneaky like you don’t have permission to even ask me that question, but chances are you’re more inclined to respond to a direct question versus me showing up saying, “Joe, you have a real problem with SEO on your website and you should hire me. And this is why you should hire me. I’m so awesome. My prices are the best”, Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And you go, “No”, right?

Joe Casabona: Right.

Nikki Rausch: So ask a question. You can ask permission. You can even ask somebody, is there ever a chance you’d be open to having a conversation about X, Y, and Z? Or is there ever a chance I could earn your business? Like that’s another really basic question that people are afraid to ask, but yet to the receiver, the person that you’re asking that question of, you’re showing respect to them. You’re showing that I’m not going to just word vomit on you. I’m not going to sell to you. I truly am asking permission. And if you say no, I will respect that. And if you say yes, then we can further the conversation.

Joe Casabona: Yeah. And just to drive this home, I do, my assistant, Jordan, who appeared on an episode, a few episodes ago, she does this kind of cold outreach for me, right? Because like cold, cold outreach, like really makes my skin crawl. Like it’s something that I because I’m very like, “No, if I need something, I’ll ask for it”, right. But, so she starts the conversation with a pretty open-ended question about their podcast, right. “Is there something in your podcast you wish you were doing better? Or do you feel like you’re getting a lot of downloads?” Like something like that. Like we tweak the script here and there, but we open up that conversation not with, “Hey, hire me as a coach:, but with, ”Hey, how’s your podcast going?”, right. And then we invite them to like a free 15-minute, no-strings-attached. I just want to help you solve your first problem, call, right. Like, because I want to show, they don’t know who, they don’t know me from Adam, right. So, I want to show them that I know what I’m talking about. And so like the first piece of help is a freebie. And if you like that, you can hire me for one of my audits or something like that later. And I feel like that’s been working out pretty well. I’ve gotten more calls than I feel like I would normally get. 

Nikki Rausch: Okay. Good. It’s working. Congrats. If what you’re doing is working, keep doing it.

Joe Casabona: Yeah, absolutely. And so, and I should say, like, this is still highly tested, right? I haven’t made, I mean, so this is like a two-month-old process at this point. So, like, not enough data to confirm or deny anything, but or prove anything, I should say. And I haven’t made any appreciable sales from it yet. But, the fact that I even have a pipeline now is a win for me because I didn’t really have a pipeline before this.

Nikki Rausch: Can I offer you maybe an opportunity of how you might build a pipeline that doesn’t involve the cold outreach?

Joe Casabona: Yes.

Nikki Rausch: Okay. So, the easiest way to bring in new clients and to open doors for people that you don’t have a connection to yet is to ask your existing network if they’d be willing to make an introduction on your behalf. Because I can guarantee you that there are people in your network right now, the people that know you, who just really think highly of you, could even be listeners, frankly, Joe, that I really respect what you do, that know people that have a podcast that might benefit from what it is that you offer. And when that person makes the introduction on your behalf, you get to ride the coattails of the credibility that, that person has versus Jordan, reaching out cold, where it’s still like, It’s still suspect. It’s like, “Hmm, I don’t know. Is this guy legit? I’m not sure yet.” So then when they come to the call, they’re still in that like skeptic mode.

But if somebody who you highly respect, which you started that conversation today by mentioning somebody we have in common, and I guarantee you right now that if that person sent a message and said, “Hey Nikki, I want to introduce you to my friend, Joe. Here’s what he does. And I think you guys might benefit from having a conversation.” Like I would be so open to getting on a call with you. Like, because I think so highly of the person that you and I have in common. So you get to ride the coattails of her credibility that she has with me, like anybody she introduced me to, I’d be willing to get on a call with doesn’t mean I’m going to hire them, but it does mean that I would give them the time of day.

Joe Casabona: Yeah. You’re borrowing trust, right?

Nikki Rausch: Yeah, yeah. Incredibility, yep.

Joe Casabona: I love that. Now, this is, Gosh! This isn’t even our like act two conflict yet, but, I do, you know, ’cause I’ve heard. I’ve been a freelancer for over 20 years. I started in web development before moving into podcast coaching mostly as a way to make people who are like a lot older than me upset Like whenever I’m like, I’m a podcast coach, like that’s weird and it scares me. But someone was like, isn’t that just like radio? I’m like, exactly, like radio. Yeah, absolutely.

Nikki Rausch: Yes, but better.

Joe Casabona: But, you know, we’ve always been, like freelancers have always been told, like, word of mouth doesn’t work. And I don’t think what you said exactly is word of mouth, but it’s also not, you know, one of these big, amazing, like, marketing lead magnet Facebook ad things. So,, like…

Nikki Rausch: It also really works, by the way.

Joe Casabona: Yeah. Yeah, right. Somebody was like, you should try Facebook ads and I’m like, I might as well just set money on fire. Like, I’ll put that money into DraftKings because at least I know something about sports.

Nikki Rausch: Yeah. I, at this point, will flush it down the toilet and feel like I’ll get a better return.

Joe Casabona: Yeah. I feel like that should be the cold open.

Nikki Rausch: But the thing is like, okay, so you’re right. This is not word of mouth. This is actual introductions. These is connections. 

And most businesses if you look, most businesses like big business, big deals that are happening are happening because somebody knew somebody. There was a connection made. This is how when you ask people how did this opportunity came to you, like, How did you get so lucky in life that you got this great opportunity? And they go, “Well, somebody I knew opened the store for me.” Like you hear that across the board. This is why, and I think you even mentioned this at the very beginning before you hit record, like the reason we have somebody in common is because you and this person are participating in an event that you guys showed up together live, right, at this event. So people pay money to buy their seats at the table. And then as much as you probably got out of whoever put on this event, as much as you probably got out of like the content, what you also took away was the connections that you made in that room. So when people open doors for you, that’s what you’re doing. You’re like making these connections that you will have a hard time making on your own. 

Joe Casabona: Gosh. I love that because it’s something I’ve said for like my network, your network, dear listener, like that’s your life’s blood.

Nikki Rausch: That’s right.

Joe Casabona: If you don’t have a network, you, personally, I think if you don’t have a network, you don’t have a business.

Nikki Rausch: It’s very hard to get to that next level in your business without having a network, without having people who are willing to be ambassadors in the marketplace for you. Because I can sit here and say how awesome of a sales coach I am. And I know I’m really good at what I do, but I’ll tell you what, if somebody else says it, it holds more weight than what than me saying it..If somebody is like, “Look, I’ve hired Nikki, this is the kind of results that I got” that will carry more weight than me talking through all of my, you know, bulleted points of all the things I’ve accomplished.  

Joe Casabona: Yep, absolutely. Which brings me to the next big point I want to make, which is why do we need sales calls in the first place. Like, why can’t we just educate people on what we offer? But before we get to that, I do want to take a quick break for our sponsors.  

All right. And we’re back. So, great. We make an introduction. Someone makes an introduction. Everything’s wonderful. That person hired me. Why can’t I just be like, yeah, so I can help you grow your podcast? Are you ready to hire me? 

Nikki Rausch: Yeah.

Joe Casabona: Let’s do it.

Nikki Rausch: And I think you said even before the break that it’s this idea of like, why can’t we just educate people? Like why do we have to have sales calls? The reason that you can’t just educate people and that you have to have sales calls is because as much as like what you offer is what you offer, the person that you’re talking to, they speak their own language. And if you’re not willing to ask questions and find out what’s important to them, what their criteria are, what’s their biggest struggle right now, and then tailor your offer, and I don’t mean change your offer, but I mean tailor the delivery of what the offer is to them to meet their needs, it is like you are speaking a foreign language to somebody who’s like, I don’t even know what language you’re speaking.

So, one of the problems with this idea of like, I just want to educate people. Well, realistically, I think you said, Joe, like you’ve been doing this for, did you say 20 years? Yeah, right, 20 years. Like, I’ll bet, you know, so much, like, I have no doubt, you know, so much. And if I said, Joe, can you speak to me about like web development and how it translated into podcasting? You could probably talk for days, right? You could because you know so much and you’re a listener too. You’re an expert at what you do. You know so much. But unfortunately, that the things that you know and the things that you might say to me might not meet my criteria because you didn’t ask about my criteria. So you didn’t tailor your answer to me. So even though you might be able to help me, you’re not speaking my language. I don’t feel that connection to you and I’m not going to hire you.

So you’ve got to have one-on-one sales calls for most businesses. Now, if you’re just selling a product and it’s on a website and you’re like, Hey, you can come to order my cupcakes. Here’s the order form, whatever, that’s different. But if you’re selling high ticket stuff, if you’re selling services, there’s a good chance you’re going to need to have these consult calls, and there are some things that you need to do in the consult calls to build rapport, to give the person the opportunity to share about their struggles and their criteria so that you can start to pick up their key phrases and language.

And then also identify, are, am I even talking to an ideal client. And if so, do I then… can I ask them for permission to put an offer in front of them, and can I tailor my offer in a way that makes them go like, yes, yes, Joe? This is exactly what I need right now for my podcast. Thank you so much for showing up. Like how do I pay you money? That’s why you need those calls. 

Joe Casabona: Yeah. This is really important, right, because like the, I always think about the page, again, since I come from web development, the page the developer makes for the thing they made, and they’ll say like, “Oh, Yeah! 100% coded in React, loads super fast, really optimized code or whatever, and it’s like, I don’t care about that.

Nikki Rausch: Yeah.

Joe Casabona:  I mean, I, as a developer kind of care about that. But like, that doesn’t solve my problem, right? The carpenter doesn’t tell you, “Oh, yeah. We only use Black Decker tools. No one cares what tools you use as long as you do a good job, right? 

Nikki Rausch: Yeah. Can you fix my problem? Can you solve it? Can you, you know, build the thing? Is it going to work? Are my clients going to like it? Yeah, that’s the stuff. But you’ve got to ask the questions. And get the answers so that you can deliver a solution that matches that person’s criteria. So it feels like you’re speaking my language and it’s so satisfying to hear you speak it.

Joe Casabona: Yeah, and I think, I just thought of, this is an actual experience I had probably like a year and a half ago. Our sink, like our faucet, was leaking and like wasn’t working. And so we had two plumbers come over that day. The first guy came and told us what was wrong and said, “We needed a new thing.” And he says to my wife, who is holding two children under three years old, well, you know, you can run to Home Depot and just pick up the faucet you want. And we’re like, we’re not going to do that. Like my husband’s at work. I have two small children here. I can’t do this. So like, we just sent him on his way. 

The second guy who came told us the same thing, but he said, I have a faucet that we recommend in my truck and I can install it right now for you. And we’re like, yeah. You understand our problem. Our sink doesn’t work. We need our sink to work.

Nikki Rausch: That’s right.

Joe Casabona: We’re making it work.

Nikki Rausch: Yeah. And you’re making it easy for me to say yes to you versus the other guy that’s saying like hey, you got to jump through hoops to pay me money. You got to go get a sink or go get a faucet or whatever. And that’s one of the other barriers of people that are struggling with sales is a lot of times when I dig into their process and dig into the conversations that they’re having, they don’t even realize how many roadblocks they’re putting up. How many hoops they’re asking people to jump through? I’m going to give you a bunch of analogies here, but it’s like, It’s like you think you’re playing tennis with a client, and every time you lob the ball over the net, somebody’s going to miss at some point, and drop the ball. But the, but the fact of the matter is, if the client drops the ball, they’re not going to go pick it up. They’re not going to run for it, chase it, and try to get it back into the, you know, back in like into the play here. They’re just going to find somebody else who says like, “Hey, here’s a ball.” I got it for you. Ready? Let’s go. 

Joe Casabona: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. You want to make it as easy as possible. And like you said, like with lower ticket items, right? Like  Cupcake solves the problem of I’m hungry and I want something sweet, right? 

Nikki Rausch: Yeah.

Joe Casabona: Like everyone kind of understands that problem. I, you know, I can sell a really simple like template for how to launch your podcast, right? And if it’s like $10, people-like, okay, $10. Maybe it’ll say, if it, even if it saves me an hour, right? It’s fine.  But the… Yeah, I want 1,500 bucks a month to help you grow your podcast all night. Now, you got to show me. How are you gonna help me grow? Are you just gonna tell me like don’t put the episode number in my title like that’s free in a blog post? So you gotta show me what you’re working with. 

Nikki Rausch: I love it. I love that. You got it. You nailed it.

Joe Casabona: So speaking, you gotta make sure to speak their own language. This is something that I, the listeners, have heard, if they are long-time listeners, have heard a couple of times, right? One of the things that you can do is talk to your current customers to learn the language that they speak.

This is… And usually, I hear this in the context of landing pages, right? So this is kind of like an addressable audience writ large. How do we take that even further when we get on a sales call, right? Because let’s say they read my page and they read save 12 hours per week on your podcast. Not to make this like a coaching call for me.

Nikki Rausch: But I’m happy to.

Joe Casabona: It’s like concrete examples here. Yeah, I assume if they read that and they’re like, yeah, Joe has three kids and runs three podcasts, how does he do that? I want to hire him. How do I hear what they’re saying? And then tailor it even more for them, if that makes sense.

Nikki Rausch: Yeah. So you’re going to ask them for instance, one of the questions that you should ask them is like, what’s important to you right now about running your podcast? Like what are the most important things? And then you’re going to write down their key phrases. Now for you, you mentioned like you’ve got kids, you’ve got three podcasts. So if you were saying that to me, I would say. Okay. And also if you mentioned time, right? So then when I’m delivering back my proposal, I’m going to say, you know, one of the advantages of working together is this is going to be an effective way for you to continue to run your three podcasts. It’s going to give you plenty of time to spend with the kids because the whole idea here is to cut out the amount of time you’re investing in doing this and also increase your results. Now, I’m speaking to you, but if I was talking to somebody else, like here’s a really subtle, this is so subtle and it takes a little practice to pick stuff like this up. But if I’m talking to somebody and I’m you, Joe, like in, you know, give me some grace here as I try to step into your shoes, but as I’m you, and one of the things that I do is I help people, you know, maximize the impact of their podcast. But the person that I’m talking to, they keep calling their podcast, they keep calling it a show. So my show this, my show that. So then when you’re delivering back the proposal, you don’t use the word podcast. You use the word show because now you’re speaking right to the heart of their language. So even though it might feel like odd and weird to you, it doesn’t matter. It matters how does it land to them? So if you say, so one of the advantages of us working together is that as you’re managing your show, we’re gonna ensure that you’ve got these things that you mentioned that are important, and this is gonna way for you to maximize the impact that your show makes.

So that subtle little word can be the difference between somebody feeling like, Oh! Joe really gets me and I feel seen and heard by him versus like Joe’s just spouting his stuff at me and trying to convince me to buy from him.

Joe Casabona: Yeah. That’s like, I don’t want to get political, but there’s a really good example in the current political climate, right, that I heard about over the weekend, right, where in the Republican primary, Mike Pence dropped out. Two other candidates made speeches after he dropped out. One just delivered his speech on, unedited, and didn’t make any mention of Mike Pence dropping out.

The other, I’m going to give away who this other person is, the other delivered her speech and started off with, Mike Pence is a great American, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right? Said really nice things about him, right? Guess which one of those candidates came off as more human that weekend, right?

Nikki Rausch: Yep, for sure.

Joe Casabona: Didn’t just sound like a robot, right?

Nikki Rausch: Yep.

Joe Casabona: And so I think it’s absolutely the same thing here, right?

Nikki Rausch: Yes.

Joe Casabona: You’re adapting and you’re using the language they’re using.

Nikki Rausch: Yeah.

Joe Casabona: Because it may, it’s like no one wants to, like you said, no one wants to feel like they’re being talked at or even scolded, right?

Nikki Rausch: Yeah. And nobody wants to feel like, “Oh! You just see me as a big old wallet, and you’re just trying to get money out of me”. That feels manipulative. That feels gross. That’s often where people go, “Oh, sales can be so slimy”. Yeah. It can be when you feel like somebody’s just trying to convince you. And I teach this: Your job is not to convince anybody to buy from you. If you’re in convincing mode, you’ve already lost because frankly, especially in our society nowadays, you try to change somebody’s mind. Good luck with that. Like nobody wants anybody trying to change their mind or convince them of something. So the objective of sales is not to convince. The objective is to understand, do they have a need. Do I have a solution? Do I have permission to put my solution in front of them, and do I know how to ask for their business? And if you can nail those things, you’re going to increase your sales. Hands down, period.  

:Joe Casabona: Yeah. The…something really jumps out at me here, too because if you’re like in too deep, right, like it’s easy for us to become experts in our field and then forget what it’s like to be a beginner.

And so when I was teaching, you know, I taught in the college classroom for a long time and I was describing something that was just like second nature to me in WordPress, and I asked my students if they had any questions. And one student just raised her hand and said, “I have no idea what you’re talking about”, like, she…I wish I could remember her name, but this was like 12 years ago now. She like changed my life in that moment. Because I realized that, oh, this is actually really confusing. And it really changed the way it changed my approach to how I taught WordPress. And I carry that with me into the podcasting field as well, right? Like there are some people who say, oh, my podcast is only on YouTube. And like the knee-jerk reaction for most people who help podcasters is say, if your podcast is on YouTube, it’s not really a podcast. I would never say that to somebody. 

Nikki Rausch: No.

,

Joe Casabona: I would say, “Oh, cool. Well, YouTube is a great place to have your podcast because they are one of the only people with algorithmic discovery, right? So it’s one of the only places where your podcast will actually get recommended to people. And then I would say, you know, we can get even more listeners by making sure we’re on these other platforms as well. I would never say you’re not a real podcaster then, because you need an RSS feed. No, 35% of American adults consume podcasts on YouTube. So maybe those people aren’t really there.

Nikki Rausch: Yeah. So I love that you have this attitude because you’re right. Like most of us were experts at what we do. We know what we know. You don’t need to shame people in order to earn their business. You don’t even need to correct people in order to earn their business. What you need to understand is where are they right now. What is it that they want to achieve? Can you help them achieve it? And you don’t have to make sales. 

Sales doesn’t have to feel awkward and weird, and it doesn’t have to be gross and manipulative. Now, can it be? Yes. It can be all those things, but that’s on the seller. That’s them not doing their due diligence, and not learning how to do it properly. And sales is a… It’s a learned skill. As much as people go like, Oh, he’s a natural-born salesperson. He might have some natural charisma. You know, that’s amazing. 

With my background, I have worked with thousands of salespeople and I’ve had the great pleasure of coaching thousands and one-on-one coaching hundreds of people. Not, that they don’t have a particular personality trait that makes them a natural-born salesperson. What they have is a desire to learn a skill that can be learned. So just like how you can teach people things about their podcasts. And for instance that there are other platforms and you can have an RSS feed for your podcast, right? Like you can teach them these things. You don’t have to tell them what they don’t know.  

Joe Casabona: Yeah, because that’s part of, well, first of all, I want to plug this really quick, right? Because Nikki mentioned that she’s coached thousands of people. In the pro show, we are going to talk about how to deliver a great coaching experience, something I feel I’m still learning. So, if you want to hear that, you can hear that conversation ad-free, as well as every episode ad-free and extended if you head over to [streamlined.fm/join]. Or if you’re listening in Apple podcast, just click that subscribe button and you can listen right in the Apple podcast app.

So, I love this natural salespeople have a desire to learn, right? I think this is at our, coaches are teachers.

Nikki Rausch: Yeah, I think so too.

Joe Casabona: We shouldn’t…I always say that developers have, are like a weird and like myself included sometimes, right? We’re like a weird paradox because we think we’re smarter than everybody else, but we also think people should already know what we know and like, it can’t be both, right?

Nikki Rausch: I love that so much.

Joe Casabona: Yeah, and it’s true. Just like the people who are like, Oh, if you’re on YouTube, you’re not a real podcast. You’re like, Oh, I can’t believe you use Zoom to record your podcast. People who are just starting with a podcast know that you can record a conversation with Zoom. That’s where their knowledge stops. They’re not researching what’s the best way to get the highest audio quality possible. They’re thinking, I have a million things to do, and I know how to use Zoom. So, check that off the list. 

Nikki Rausch: Yep, check.

Joe Casabona: So, I just, I love the… you know, natural salespeople “have a desire to learn” because I think that if we are going to be good at what we do, we all need to have that. The moment that you get complacent and think I know everything is the moment that your business starts to fail.

Nikki Rausch: It’s a really tough place to be. And you know, there’s one thing to have mastered areas of your knowledge base, but business isn’t just one area. It’s a lot of areas.

Joe Casabona: I love that.

Nikki Rausch: Right, like there’s no just… there’s no, just business. Okay. I got it.

Joe Casabona: Yeah. And this is why like, you know, you can’t learn business in a classroom. Like, you know, I learned a lot of things in the classroom. I teach a lot of things in the classroom. But like my best business lessons came from me, because I’m a giant New York stereotype. I’m an Italian who worked in a Deli in New York. And my boss, (my New York accent’s gonna come out now, I already feel it)

Nikki Rausch: I love it.

Joe Casabona: My boss, Mr. Rizzi, every Saturday after we closed, he would, like school was in session, he would ask me, (Oh my God! Sorry.) He would ask me (I try to like not say axe) He would ask me questions about my business and he would give me advice and real experience and like reflect on lessons from the day. That was the best school I got until I was actually out in the real world running my business and trying not to like crash and burn. So, you know, I always shout out Mr. Rizzi on this show, but it’s I think, its business isn’t just one area is such a succinct way to tell, to say what I just said in like a long story.

Nikki Rausch: I love your story. And I love that you shout out to your mentors.

Joe Casabona: Yeah, it’s really important, right? Like, you know, again, like our mutual connection is one of your coaching clients. This person absolutely loves you. And you need good mentors because you know, we’re in our own heads all the time, you know, how many times do you give people advice that you wish you would take yourself, right?

Nikki Rausch: Oh my God!

Joe Casabona: That’s why you need like an external coach.

Nikki Rausch: Yes. We all have blind spots. It is impossible. What is the saying? It’s impossible to see the… What is it? It’s impossible to see the label inside the bottle.

Joe Casabona: Oh, yeah. Yeah. You can’t read the label.

Nikki Rausch: You can’t read the label from inside the bottle. That’s, yeah. That’s me. That’s everybody I coach, which is another reason why you don’t need to show up from a place of like trying to correct and embarrass somebody for not knowing something because they’re inside the bottle and you can read the label because you’re on the outside. So, congratulations. Good for you. It doesn’t make you, you know, necessarily better than this other person.

Joe Casabona: Yeah. Making someone feel stupid for something that you know that they don’t says way more about you than it does about them.

Nikki Rausch: Amen. Yeah.

Joe Casabona: All right. Well, we’ve been talking for a while. I feel like I’ve been talking too much, but you’ve been dropping these late. You drop like really succinct gems that I just feel like I need to like bloviate about.

So, I want to like seed most of the floor to you for this next part which is starting the sales conversation. Because earlier you said we need permission. We’ve got to earn it. And we have one way to start that to get people to start the conversation with. But what is the whole process kind of look like from a 10, 000 foot view? And if our listeners are going to take one or two things away, what should they be?

Nikki Rausch: So I teach a five-step process to a sales conversation. I call it the selling staircase. My third book I wrote about the selling staircase. And the reason I teach the conversation like it’s a staircase is because we understand, most of us understand the concept of a staircase that you go one step at a time. 

So, the five steps of the staircase are to help somebody identify what step am I on in the conversation with somebody and what the logical next step and how do I move them from whatever step we’re on to the next step. And that usually comes in the form of a question, which I also relate to an invitation. 

So, when you can move somebody seamlessly up through the five steps, it gets easy that by the time you get to step five, which is the close, by the way, that it’s logical for you then to ask for their business. But if you’ve missed some of the earlier steps and you just go from the step one, which is an introduction and right into the close, which is step five, that’s like asking somebody to stand at the bottom of a staircase and use their core strength to hop up to the top step. 

Now, most people are going to look at you like, I don’t have that strong of a core and I’m afraid I’m going to bang my shin. So no, thank you. I’ll pass. Like they’re not going to do it with you. And so once you understand that it’s one step at a time, it also breaks it down for you and takes some of the pressure off you as the seller to feel like, Oh my gosh, I got to like, you know, get them all the way to the close and it’s going to be so hard. It’s like, no, it’s just one step at a time. And that can happen in one conversation or that can happen in multiple conversations. 

But the objective, the way that you move somebody from one step to the next is through issuing an invitation. Something as simple as saying, is this something you’d be open to having a conversation with? Or if we’re, you know, moving from discovery to proposal, which is step three to four, me saying, you know, based on what you’ve shared, Joe, I see some ways we might work together. Would you be interested in hearing more about those? That’s me asking permission again. So once you say yes, now I know, okay, we’re on step four. My job here is to now lay out a clear offer for you. And then issue step five, which is the close. Close language is something as simple as, you know, so here’s the way I would recommend that we work together. It includes this, this, and this. Is that something you’d like to go ahead and get started with? That’s me issuing closed language.

So every step of the way, you’re issuing invitations. Because if your client or prospect doesn’t know what to do, they’ll hang out on certain steps. They won’t just move. They don’t know how to say to you oftentimes, I would like to pay you money. How do I go about doing that? Like very, very few times in your business will that happen. So we have to make it really easy for people, make it really clear. And when they know what to do or say next, they’re much more likely to take that step with you.

Joe Casabona: This is great. So, first of all, I really want to highlight the point that, like, if people don’t get an invitation, they’re just going to hang out on the step. This is really important, right? Because, like, for the longest time, I would think, well, people know what I offer, and when they want it, they’ll reach out. And, like, both of those things are wrong. Like, people may not necessarily know that I offer X, Y, or Z, and they’re not going to, they’re going to talk themselves out of it, even if they’re like, well, maybe Joe can help me with this. They’re most likely going to be like, well, Joe probably is not taking on clients or something like that. Like, they’ll wait for me to say, hey, do you need me?

Nikki Rausch: They will make up all kinds of stories as to why they shouldn’t ask you. Like, maybe my podcast isn’t big enough. Maybe Joe… doesn’t think that it would be okay to work with me because we know each other in this other context, or maybe Joe doesn’t really like me and he wouldn’t enjoy supporting me, right? Like they make up all these crazy stories that aren’t true. So your job is to never make assumptions. And this is like the two biggest mistakes in sales that happen. And we all do it by the way. Even those of us who’ve been in sales like me for more than 25 years, we do this thing where we project limiting beliefs onto a prospect.

So we make, we like, Oh, my limiting belief is, somebody wouldn’t pay me this much money for X, Y, Z service. That’s a limiting belief. And then we project or excuse me, then we hallucinate. We act as if we know what the person’s thinking, which unless you are a qualified psychic, you don’t know what people are thinking and stop acting like you do. Stop pretending that you know what somebody’s going to say like, Oh, I know they’re going to say no. If I ask him for their business, Oh, I know they’re going to say this or do that. You don’t know. And the only way you do will know is by issuing the invitation, by asking. And I can’t tell you how many times I’ve taught this to clients and they’ve come back and been like, Oh my gosh, Nikki! I just booked three new clients. Okay. How did you do it? I asked. Yes, exactly. And now there’s a way to ask. There’s all these things that go into it, but it’s not that complicated. If you just say to somebody, you know, you are somebody who I would absolutely love to work with. Is there ever an opportunity where you’d be open to that? Ask that question and see what people say, because they’ll likely say this, huh? I never really thought about it.

What kind of things would we do together? Well, now you have an opportunity to talk about it. Talk about your business, talk about ways you might work together, and then you can follow up with another invitation to them. See if they want to get started, because chances are they haven’t put that much time and energy into thinking about you and your business and how you can help them.

Joe Casabona: Right. They’re probably in the weeds with their business hoping somebody comes along, right? It’s like, the person who’s in shark-infested water, they keep like praying for a boat to come by. 

Nikki Rausch: Yes. I love that.

Joe Casabona: And it kind of reminds me of my daughter, right? She’ll like sigh heavily when she wants something, and I’ll be like, what do you… What do you need bud? She’s like, well, and I’m like, sweetie, you gotta, I’m not a mind reader. You need to ask me. And she’s like, what if you say no? I’m like, well, I might, right? You can’t have a king-size Reese’s before bed, but like, if you’re hungry, I can give you, you know, something healthy before bed. Right. 

Nikki Rausch: That’s right.

Joe Casabona: You gotta tell me though. So, I love that. And then the other thing, like the five-step process, my history with CRMs has been nightmarish. I just, you know, I’m like one of those people with the, at least with the CRM, who thinks like the tool will save me. And it’s not the fact that I don’t use the tool. It’s like, oh, well, I just didn’t use that because it didn’t work for me, right? But now I’m finally, like, using Notion because I live in Notion lately. And, but my CRM has like potential, and then, like, reached out and then, like, maybe, like, lukewarm, and then like won and lost. And those are terrible. Like my assistants, like what’s the difference between like lukewarm and prospect and reaching out? And I’m like, I don’t know. Just kind of made them up. 

But like your five-step process really feels like those are very clear labels for the status of each person in my CRM, right?

Nikki Rausch: It’s a concrete, yeah. It’s concrete, like I know what to do and say here and I offer training right around each step. So, you know, if you’re feeling like, Oh, I’m lacking in, I don’t know how to create curiosity about my business. I have a training for that to teach you so you can start to build that muscle. And if you’re not sure how to close, I have a training for that. Well, what if they say this? What if they ask this? What if they object here? Like there’s a training for that so that you get comfortable with the close process. And once you understand, again, what step am I on, it is clear. And that’s the whole objective. And I know we haven’t gone into this, but I have a pretty extensive background in neurolinguistic programming. And if that’s a new term, it’s really the study of communication. 

And The thing about NLP is, it’s NLP for short, is there’s a presupposition that we learn in NLP that there’s a structure to excellence. And that people who are getting exceptional results in some area of their life or business, whether they can articulate it or not, they’re following a structure. And I teach a lot around structure. And it isn’t about, “Oh, try to sell like me or try to talk like me. It’s like, no, let me show you what the steps are. Because if you can understand what step you’re on, then you can show up and be your genuine self and be more strategic in the conversation. And you can now achieve excellence in regards to sales when you understand the structure of a sales conversation.

Joe Casabona: Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. And I just want to touch on the fact that you said, like whether they can like, whether they can kind of, what was the exact wording you used there? Whether they can say it or not, whether they can state it or not.

Nikki Rausch: Yeah. I’m not trying to teach anybody how to sell like me or like here’s a script and you just got to regurgitate it and throw it on, you know, throw it up on somebody. It allows for your own genuine personality process to come through. It’s that you just are more strategic in that conversation.

Joe Casabona: Right. Okay. And that’s really important, right? Because like a lot of the Twitter advice, right? Or a lot of the threads and LinkedIn posts that we see are like..you should do it this way, right? They’re very like, this is how I did it. This is how you should do it. And that is just always like a load of BS to me, right? It’s like, here are the numbers I used to win the lottery, right? And like, it’s got that same energy. So, I like what you’re saying there about, you know, you’re not telling people to do this my way. You’re, giving them more of a framework to help them do it.

Nikki Rausch: Yeah.

Joe Casabona: Do it their way.

Nikki Rausch: Yeah. Yeah. You can achieve success in your life in any area of your life if you’re willing to put some process behind it, some effort behind it, you can achieve success. Like we know that it’s not always the best, you know, I don’t know if you’re a sports guy, Joe, but it’s not always, you know, like, okay. What’s your sport of choice? Baseball. Okay. I was going to go to baseball. So I love this. Like there are pitchers that have natural talent, right? But even pitchers that have natural talent and some who might not have it naturally can achieve the highest level. They can play in the major leagues and achieve a high level of success because they practice, because they get a coach, because they understand their process of what it takes based on their build, their body of how to grip the ball, how to throw the ball, what to do with their arm, what to do with their legs, what to do with their head, like all these things. But they still have their own way because you can watch a lot of different pitchers. And you can’t say they all throw the same. They don’t, but yet they have achieved success. They’re at the top level and achieving success because they have practiced, they’ve put in the time and they put in the work. And you can do that in your own life too and in your business and in any area of your life, if you’re willing to put in the time and the work. And I’m not saying you have to practice as hard as, you know, the pitchers that reach the major leagues, but there’s some effort that’s required.  

Joe Casabona: Yeah, absolutely. And I mean like perfect example of this comes from like the Yankee starting rotation, right? Like Gerritt Cole naturally still works super hard like between innings like studies like what he just did.

Nikki Rausch: Yeah.

Joe Casabona: But then like Nestor Cortes needed a lot of work to get to where he is and now he’s like the Yankee’s number two guy basically behind Gerritt Cole. So, like two very different approaches, you know, like if Gerritt Cole was just like pitch like me, Nestor Cortes wouldn’t be in the majors.

Nikki Rausch: He wouldn’t be able to do it, right?

Joe Casabona: Yeah.

Nikki Rausch: So, yeah. Everybody who’s telling you like, just be like me. Well, that’s not who we are. Like you’re perfect the way you are and you can continue to hone your own self, your own genuine skills to achieve your own level of success. You don’t have to be like someone else.

There’s this, maybe it’s farsighted. It’s definitely like a newspaper comic. And it was like a commentary on standardized tests, but I think it’s really applicable here. It’s like five animals lined up like a monkey, an elephant,  a hippo, and a giraffe, and a dog. And the test was to climb the tree, right? And like that was the only evaluation, and like the monkey was real happy. Nobody else was very happy, right? Because, like, they don’t have the ability to climb the tree, but they have other abilities. So, don’t, you know, don’t climb a tree if your strength is swimming, I guess. Swim. That’s where you need to get to where you’re going. 

So, Nikki, this has been amazing. You’ve given us so much great advice and resources, which I will link in the show notes over at [streamlined.fm/342]. But if people want to learn more about you and to allow you to invite them to have a conversation, where should they go?

Nikki Rausch: I’m going to wrap it around a gift for your audience. I mentioned the five steps that I teach of the Selling Staircase, so I have a training around this. It’s called Mastering the Sales Conversation. I would love to gift it to you. Also, so this is yours for free. It’s short, it’s succinct. It’s something that you can easily implement into your sales conversations right now and you can get it by going to [yoursalesmaven.com/howibuilt]. So go grab that.

And then we’ll be connected. And I’m happy to connect with you. I’m happy to hear from you. What’s your biggest struggle regarding sales? What was something I said today on the podcast that you found value in? Please connect with me. I’d love to hear from you.

Joe Casabona: Yeah. So that’s great. Once again, that link is [yoursalesmaven.com/howibuilt]. It will be In the show notes, which is over at [streamlined.fm/342].

Stick around members to hear how to deliver just a great coaching experience. But Nikki, thanks so much for joining us today. I really appreciate it.

Nikki Rausch: Thanks for having me.

Joe Casabona: And thank you for listening. Thanks to our sponsors. And until next time, get out there and build something.

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