00:00:00.149 –> 00:00:04.409

Joe: In early November, I ruffled some feathers.

00:00:04.979 –> 00:00:07.739

I made a couple of posts about.

00:00:08.429 –> 00:00:12.179

AI and how it should and should not be used.

00:00:12.899 –> 00:00:17.459

The first one was me saying that telling AI to act like a

00:00:17.459 –> 00:00:19.979

doctor makes it as much a doctor.

00:00:20.339 –> 00:00:21.479

As selling George Clooney.

00:00:22.079 –> 00:00:23.219

To act like a doctor.

00:00:23.759 –> 00:00:25.559

But the second post.

00:00:26.129 –> 00:00:27.479

The second post.

00:00:27.779 –> 00:00:30.329

Really got under a lot of people's skin.

00:00:30.779 –> 00:00:34.409

Where I said, using AI to write your book.

00:00:34.829 –> 00:00:36.149

Is like using a car.

00:00:36.659 –> 00:00:37.769

To run a marathon.

00:00:38.909 –> 00:00:43.619

Now I'll admit that maybe that's not a perfect analogy.

00:00:44.159 –> 00:00:48.359

But one of the people who I got in the spirited debate with was

00:00:48.359 –> 00:00:52.409

my good friend, Alistair McDermott over at the recognized authority.

00:00:53.009 –> 00:00:58.589

And he suggested we act like true podcasters in gentlemen.

00:00:59.099 –> 00:01:00.959

And get on an episode.

00:01:01.409 –> 00:01:02.369

And have a debate.

00:01:03.419 –> 00:01:06.629

And so we recorded it on his channel over on his live stream.

00:01:07.079 –> 00:01:09.659

And he provided me with the audio.

00:01:09.929 –> 00:01:15.209

So in this very special bonus episode of how I built it, I'm going to give

00:01:15.209 –> 00:01:19.499

you the debate that Allister and I had, I think it's really good.

00:01:20.039 –> 00:01:23.399

Uh, I don't want to spoil anything, but there are points where we

00:01:23.399 –> 00:01:28.979

fully agree and points where we agree to disagree as we continue.

00:01:29.309 –> 00:01:37.109

To hash out and fully bake our thoughts on this very new landscape.

00:01:37.799 –> 00:01:40.259

For business owners and creators.

00:01:40.259 –> 00:01:44.459

So I hope you enjoy this episode.

00:01:45.149 –> 00:01:47.309

This bonus episode, this debate.

00:01:47.609 –> 00:01:50.159

Between me and Allister McDermott.

00:01:50.999 –> 00:01:52.949

Let's get into the intro.

00:01:53.369 –> 00:01:54.389

And then the debate.

00:01:57.239 –> 00:02:01.589

Hey everybody, and welcome to How I Built It, the podcast where you get free

00:02:02.059 –> 00:02:04.139

coaching calls from successful creators.

00:02:04.529 –> 00:02:09.299

Each week you get actionable advice on how you can build a better creator

00:02:09.299 –> 00:02:14.609

business to increase revenue and establish yourself as an authority in your field.

00:02:15.149 –> 00:02:17.379

I'm your host, Joe Casabona.

00:02:17.459 –> 00:02:18.599

Now let's get to it.

00:02:20.529 –> 00:02:22.559

Alastair: Hello and welcome to the recognized authority.

00:02:22.579 –> 00:02:25.449

I'm Alistair McDermott and my guest is Joe Casabona.

00:02:25.719 –> 00:02:30.679

Today, we are going to discuss can and should we use AI to write for us?

00:02:30.699 –> 00:02:31.419

Welcome, Joe.

00:02:32.429 –> 00:02:34.089

Joe: Thanks for having me, Alistair.

00:02:34.089 –> 00:02:34.789

I'm excited to

00:02:34.789 –> 00:02:35.569

Alastair: talk about this.

00:02:36.294 –> 00:02:39.324

Joe, you are somebody who's been on the show before you were

00:02:39.334 –> 00:02:42.164

on, I think it was episode 36.

00:02:42.194 –> 00:02:42.444

Yeah.

00:02:42.444 –> 00:02:45.134

Episode 36 back in October of 2021.

00:02:45.204 –> 00:02:48.094

So two years later, uh, we're here again chatting.

00:02:48.544 –> 00:02:51.744

And so you have ruffled some feathers with what you've been saying about AI

00:02:52.324 –> 00:02:56.044

on LinkedIn and people are blocking you and stuff like that because you're,

00:02:56.044 –> 00:02:57.604

uh, you're really poking poking folks.

00:02:57.604 –> 00:03:01.134

So can you tell me a little bit about what you said about AI and let's get into it.

00:03:01.609 –> 00:03:02.119

Joe: Yeah.

00:03:02.119 –> 00:03:07.929

So this was, so the impetus for this chat was actually, uh, the second apparently

00:03:07.939 –> 00:03:10.249

inflammatory post I've made about AI.

00:03:10.929 –> 00:03:12.459

Uh, the first one.

00:03:13.254 –> 00:03:21.274

Was, um, telling AI to act like a doctor with 20 years experience makes it a

00:03:21.274 –> 00:03:26.354

doctor as much as telling George Clooney to act like a doctor makes him a doctor.

00:03:26.794 –> 00:03:28.694

People got real mad at that.

00:03:29.094 –> 00:03:34.244

Um, and so I decided to follow it up with, I saw a post somewhere in some community.

00:03:34.714 –> 00:03:39.244

about how this person was writing 25, 000 words a month using AI.

00:03:39.264 –> 00:03:42.574

And I'm like, well, that means you're not writing 25, 000 words a month.

00:03:43.104 –> 00:03:44.954

AI is writing some of those words.

00:03:44.954 –> 00:03:51.234

And so I posted across social media saying I used AI to write my book or I use AI to

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write a blog post a day is like saying.

00:03:53.809 –> 00:03:58.879

I used my car to run a marathon, and a lot of people, uh, got mad that you and

00:03:58.879 –> 00:04:01.179

I had a spirited debate on that post.

00:04:02.699 –> 00:04:03.489

Alastair: We certainly did.

00:04:03.699 –> 00:04:08.389

I think that the analogy is not perfect, like all analogies, but there is some

00:04:08.389 –> 00:04:09.409

truth to what you're saying as well.

00:04:09.429 –> 00:04:12.019

So that's why I wanted to get you on the show and to just chat about it,

00:04:12.159 –> 00:04:13.719

rather than just blocking you, you know?

00:04:13.934 –> 00:04:14.944

Joe: Yeah, absolutely.

00:04:15.264 –> 00:04:15.594

Right.

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Reason.

00:04:16.234 –> 00:04:18.384

I'm all about reasonable discourse.

00:04:18.424 –> 00:04:23.734

And so when someone is being unreasonable, I, I no longer go for it.

00:04:23.744 –> 00:04:29.684

So the, the, in, in one case, this person just liked to hear themselves talk.

00:04:30.384 –> 00:04:33.484

And so I would say something and then they would say something and

00:04:33.484 –> 00:04:36.014

then I would respond and then they would respond with a non sequitur.

00:04:36.354 –> 00:04:38.364

And I'm like, well, you're not worth arguing with.

00:04:39.049 –> 00:04:41.619

Because you are not, we're not arguing, right?

00:04:41.639 –> 00:04:43.179

Or we're not debating, whatever you want to say.

00:04:43.709 –> 00:04:47.659

Uh, but yeah, you and I point counterpoint, right?

00:04:47.869 –> 00:04:49.069

Reasonable discourse.

00:04:49.579 –> 00:04:52.149

Alastair: Well, of course, as podcasters, you know, we, we do

00:04:52.149 –> 00:04:53.349

like to talk a little bit as well.

00:04:53.869 –> 00:04:54.279

Joe: Yes.

00:04:54.319 –> 00:04:55.579

I won't, I won't deny that.

00:04:55.579 –> 00:04:59.389

I like hearing myself talk, but usually I like hearing myself talk about

00:05:00.009 –> 00:05:02.159

whatever is relevant in the conversation.

00:05:03.149 –> 00:05:04.579

Alastair: So let's talk about this then.

00:05:05.139 –> 00:05:05.949

Um, all right.

00:05:06.449 –> 00:05:09.009

So let's talk about the first one, right?

00:05:09.019 –> 00:05:10.399

I'm using AI to write my book.

00:05:10.869 –> 00:05:12.879

Or I'm using AI to write a blog post a day.

00:05:13.179 –> 00:05:13.699

Yeah.

00:05:13.999 –> 00:05:15.659

And you're saying that's like I'm using my car to write a

00:05:15.659 –> 00:05:16.699

marathon, to run a marathon.

00:05:17.009 –> 00:05:22.279

But, so the issue for me is, well, you can be using AI to help write something

00:05:22.719 –> 00:05:26.849

and it not be like getting in your car at the start of a marathon and

00:05:26.869 –> 00:05:28.559

just driving to the end line, right?

00:05:28.944 –> 00:05:30.604

You can actually use it in a way.

00:05:30.804 –> 00:05:35.354

And so when you dig into the nuance, you, you, you really do need to dig in to

00:05:35.354 –> 00:05:39.334

figure out how they're actually using it because it's possible to write something.

00:05:39.604 –> 00:05:42.724

I mean, you can't like, you can just give chat GPT a bunch of

00:05:42.724 –> 00:05:44.494

prompts and have it spit back out.

00:05:45.489 –> 00:05:49.409

An extremely mediocre, almost by definition, mediocre, because it's kind

00:05:49.409 –> 00:05:52.829

of the average of all of the information that it's learned is what it's outputting.

00:05:53.409 –> 00:05:59.189

So, but yeah, and I think that most people who are using it to create content.

00:06:00.449 –> 00:06:03.069

I would like to say aren't using it that way or definitely

00:06:03.069 –> 00:06:04.249

shouldn't use it that way,

00:06:04.499 –> 00:06:04.769

Joe: right?

00:06:05.249 –> 00:06:07.459

Yeah, so this is where I think we're in agreement.

00:06:07.459 –> 00:06:10.749

And yes, my so this makes my post ambiguous, right?

00:06:10.749 –> 00:06:17.119

Because, um, I envision, I've like the example I told

00:06:17.119 –> 00:06:17.929

you where someone was right.

00:06:17.929 –> 00:06:23.479

I'm writing 25, 000 words a day, a week or a month, whatever with with AI.

00:06:23.949 –> 00:06:26.969

I've also talked to people who are like, Oh, yeah, I've used AI to

00:06:26.969 –> 00:06:28.569

write full chapters of my book.

00:06:28.974 –> 00:06:32.424

And I'm like, you didn't write the book then, like you didn't write that chapter.

00:06:32.604 –> 00:06:34.784

If those are not your words, you didn't write it.

00:06:34.794 –> 00:06:40.674

And so like, if you use your car to drive to where the marathon is happening,

00:06:40.684 –> 00:06:46.634

and then you run the 26 miles, no argue, no bones about that, right?

00:06:47.034 –> 00:06:48.044

Absolutely.

00:06:48.134 –> 00:06:49.484

Definitely use your car.

00:06:50.044 –> 00:06:53.254

Uh, unless you're like a maniac who like runs to the marathon

00:06:53.254 –> 00:06:54.674

and then runs the marathon.

00:06:55.184 –> 00:06:59.684

I know people like that, but let's say most of us are normal human beings.

00:07:00.104 –> 00:07:04.524

You're going to drive yourself to the starting line, right?

00:07:04.604 –> 00:07:11.674

Just like use AI for research, ideation, outlining, maybe, maybe

00:07:11.794 –> 00:07:14.724

giving you a jump off point.

00:07:15.474 –> 00:07:16.754

Those are fine, right?

00:07:16.774 –> 00:07:19.564

Because then you're going to take that raw material.

00:07:20.289 –> 00:07:25.159

And turn it into your words and your book and I don't have a problem.

00:07:25.169 –> 00:07:25.999

I do that.

00:07:27.389 –> 00:07:28.049

I do that.

00:07:28.079 –> 00:07:30.079

So I don't have a problem with that per se,

00:07:31.329 –> 00:07:31.709

Alastair: right?

00:07:31.779 –> 00:07:36.779

So the issue for me is if, if, if somebody is saying that they're

00:07:36.779 –> 00:07:39.969

refusing to use AI to help with the process of content creation.

00:07:40.704 –> 00:07:44.574

I think that as a content creator, that is like an accountant saying, Oh, I

00:07:44.584 –> 00:07:46.574

don't use spreadsheets or calculators.

00:07:46.994 –> 00:07:51.964

You know, I think you're absolutely nuts not to use AI, uh, because of how

00:07:51.964 –> 00:07:53.544

much that it can help and support us.

00:07:53.894 –> 00:07:57.874

And the way that I feel about it is it can make somebody who is

00:07:57.874 –> 00:07:59.514

good at producing good content.

00:07:59.894 –> 00:08:02.524

It can make them much more effective and efficient.

00:08:02.744 –> 00:08:06.984

at creating good content and maybe even raise the quality of that

00:08:06.984 –> 00:08:10.874

good content up a notch because it's able to do things much faster.

00:08:11.064 –> 00:08:14.964

Like some of the stuff that some of us might see as BS, like spelling

00:08:14.964 –> 00:08:17.414

and grammar and things like that, they need to be done right.

00:08:17.714 –> 00:08:21.614

But, you know, we don't like to be, you know, going around fixing that kind of

00:08:21.624 –> 00:08:24.434

stuff when we could be writing a new chapter or coming up with new ideas.

00:08:24.884 –> 00:08:27.594

So that's where it is for me is like, I think you're nuts if

00:08:27.594 –> 00:08:28.304

you're not using it for that.

00:08:29.294 –> 00:08:31.224

Joe: Yeah, agree wholeheartedly, right?

00:08:31.284 –> 00:08:33.214

I agree wholeheartedly with that statement.

00:08:33.224 –> 00:08:37.334

In fact, um, I have a course on LinkedIn Learning called

00:08:37.344 –> 00:08:39.294

Generative AI for Podcasters.

00:08:39.964 –> 00:08:44.854

And I talk about everything that you can use generative AI for.

00:08:45.164 –> 00:08:49.534

One of those things is creating a listener avatar for your show.

00:08:50.214 –> 00:08:54.294

And let me tell you, I did this for my show to see what it would come up with.

00:08:55.384 –> 00:08:59.964

And if I didn't know AI generated it, I would have thought they

00:08:59.964 –> 00:09:02.144

were describing a real person.

00:09:03.044 –> 00:09:08.234

Uh, and so that gives me clarity for who I'm talking to, especially

00:09:08.294 –> 00:09:09.364

in the beginning, right?

00:09:09.364 –> 00:09:13.024

If I don't have an audience, I need somebody to talk to

00:09:13.604 –> 00:09:15.244

until I build that audience.

00:09:15.244 –> 00:09:17.914

And so, I agree wholeheartedly with that statement.

00:09:18.394 –> 00:09:21.394

I used AI this morning to write a press release.

00:09:21.424 –> 00:09:24.404

'cause I don't think I can write press releases and they, I don't know,

00:09:24.404 –> 00:09:28.694

maybe they're just more factual than blog posts and then like, I'm having

00:09:28.699 –> 00:09:33.914

a friend punch it up for me to make it not sound like ai, but I don't, I

00:09:33.914 –> 00:09:36.674

wouldn't say I wrote that press release.

00:09:36.764 –> 00:09:37.064

Right.

00:09:37.069 –> 00:09:39.434

I would say I used AI to write a press release.

00:09:40.914 –> 00:09:43.014

Alastair: You see, now we're getting into semantics and Yeah.

00:09:43.014 –> 00:09:46.644

The, the , that's, that's, I I, I hate when these arguments get into semantic.

00:09:47.249 –> 00:09:50.079

Now, I think when I see AI creating stuff like, and I'm going to

00:09:50.079 –> 00:09:52.209

read something that AI wrote.

00:09:52.429 –> 00:09:57.239

So are you ready to unlock the clandestine power of AI and delve into a realm of

00:09:57.279 –> 00:10:00.869

endless possibilities in the modern digital landscape, staying ahead as

00:10:00.869 –> 00:10:06.509

the new normal, unlock the secrets of, I think that that is such BS.

00:10:06.529 –> 00:10:07.959

That is just crap content.

00:10:08.729 –> 00:10:10.559

And I hope you didn't get any of that in your shoes.

00:10:11.089 –> 00:10:14.889

I mean, you can use AI to write good content that doesn't sound like that.

00:10:15.169 –> 00:10:19.059

And, and that's where, like, that's where I, I, I worry.

00:10:19.059 –> 00:10:22.779

Cause I see a lot of people using it and creating rubbish content.

00:10:22.839 –> 00:10:26.279

And then I see people saying things that sound like, don't use AI.

00:10:26.709 –> 00:10:29.969

And that's, that's my concern is like, well, yeah, do use it,

00:10:30.299 –> 00:10:31.479

but use it in the right way.

00:10:32.409 –> 00:10:33.589

Joe: Use it judiciously.

00:10:33.659 –> 00:10:36.119

I think, I think we both, and we kind of came to this

00:10:36.139 –> 00:10:37.339

conclusion ahead of time, right?

00:10:37.839 –> 00:10:40.059

I think we both are closer.

00:10:40.534 –> 00:10:43.954

In our beliefs than we initially thought, right?

00:10:44.624 –> 00:10:49.734

Uh, there was another person who commented saying, like, If my audience

00:10:49.734 –> 00:10:52.494

can't tell the difference between what I write and what AI wrote,

00:10:52.494 –> 00:10:53.754

Why am I going to waste my time?

00:10:54.194 –> 00:10:59.644

And I, very bluntly said, That's a problem with you, not your audience.

00:11:01.024 –> 00:11:06.474

Like, if you can't, If you can't write in your own voice, Or a

00:11:06.474 –> 00:11:10.134

voice that's differentiated from whatever you just read there about

00:11:10.134 –> 00:11:11.774

clandestine something somethings.

00:11:12.624 –> 00:11:13.014

Right?

00:11:13.174 –> 00:11:15.284

That means that you're a bad writer.

00:11:15.764 –> 00:11:19.104

And if I'm a bad runner, and I want to get better at running,

00:11:19.654 –> 00:11:21.054

I'm not going to drive everywhere.

00:11:21.274 –> 00:11:22.194

I'm going to run more.

00:11:22.914 –> 00:11:25.384

If I don't care about writing, fine.

00:11:25.464 –> 00:11:27.204

But I'm also not going to call myself a writer.

00:11:28.964 –> 00:11:35.864

Alastair: I think that one thing that is super important to me is using

00:11:35.874 –> 00:11:38.884

AI to get faster and more efficient.

00:11:39.764 –> 00:11:41.424

And be more productive.

00:11:41.974 –> 00:11:47.634

And I, I, a friend of mine challenged me to go and quantify, because

00:11:47.694 –> 00:11:48.924

there's, there's a great book.

00:11:48.974 –> 00:11:51.464

I think it's called how to measure anything, but he said, can you

00:11:51.464 –> 00:11:55.484

quantify how much AI is, how much more effective it's making a more efficient.

00:11:56.774 –> 00:12:01.104

And it was making me about 40 percent more efficient at writing

00:12:01.114 –> 00:12:02.734

content, creating content.

00:12:03.324 –> 00:12:06.174

See, now, now we got to get specific about the words that we use here.

00:12:06.514 –> 00:12:06.814

Yeah.

00:12:07.134 –> 00:12:10.994

Um, but I'm still writing that content and the ideas are still coming from me.

00:12:11.884 –> 00:12:15.924

Even though it's applying a lot of the grunt work, and this is where, you know,

00:12:15.994 –> 00:12:21.014

um, like, I, I think of, like, if this was okay, I just made some, I just made

00:12:21.014 –> 00:12:22.554

some lamb kebabs in the kitchen, right?

00:12:22.594 –> 00:12:23.184

I was talking to you.

00:12:23.184 –> 00:12:23.534

I was down.

00:12:23.544 –> 00:12:25.584

I went downstairs cooking and I left the marinating.

00:12:26.084 –> 00:12:28.444

So when I was, when I went down to cook those.

00:12:28.874 –> 00:12:35.204

I chopped some onions in a, uh, a spinning, uh, chopping, uh, device.

00:12:35.304 –> 00:12:38.414

I don't know what you'd call it, but it basically shredded the onions down

00:12:38.424 –> 00:12:40.134

super quick in like five seconds.

00:12:40.214 –> 00:12:40.454

Boom.

00:12:40.604 –> 00:12:40.834

Done.

00:12:41.354 –> 00:12:44.404

I wouldn't have made it back in time for this call if I had done it manually.

00:12:44.734 –> 00:12:47.494

So, uh, so is that to say that I didn't cook that meal?

00:12:47.534 –> 00:12:47.854

You know?

00:12:48.114 –> 00:12:51.304

So no, it's just, I used a tool that made me more effective.

00:12:51.639 –> 00:12:52.829

That's, that's the point.

00:12:53.149 –> 00:12:55.619

Like, I still decided what I was going to make, you know?

00:12:56.189 –> 00:13:00.349

Joe: Yeah, but, so, but I think, right, where we are, we are, we are

00:13:00.349 –> 00:13:06.619

different, differing in our analogy is, my analogy was more like you going

00:13:06.619 –> 00:13:09.569

to a restaurant, buying lamb kebabs.

00:13:10.344 –> 00:13:12.374

And then saying, I made these, right?

00:13:12.924 –> 00:13:13.204

Yeah.

00:13:13.254 –> 00:13:13.674

Alastair: Okay.

00:13:14.164 –> 00:13:14.534

Right.

00:13:15.014 –> 00:13:15.904

That's my road.

00:13:16.044 –> 00:13:16.314

Yeah.

00:13:16.804 –> 00:13:20.834

The other issue that comes into this, when it comes into like writing and creating

00:13:20.834 –> 00:13:27.454

content is there is a learning process that occurs in your brain when you write.

00:13:27.864 –> 00:13:31.894

Because you have to formulate the thoughts and put those thoughts together.

00:13:32.404 –> 00:13:36.514

And this is where I could see it potentially being dangerous for people who

00:13:36.514 –> 00:13:41.654

are not experts in the field, because if they're using AI to generate and to write

00:13:41.654 –> 00:13:45.244

for them, they're not going through that learning process where they're actually

00:13:45.244 –> 00:13:46.934

putting the ideas together in their head.

00:13:47.454 –> 00:13:51.149

And, um, I think another friend of mine said something like.

00:13:51.589 –> 00:13:54.589

Editing is learning or editing is thinking, I can't remember

00:13:54.589 –> 00:13:55.579

something, something like that.

00:13:55.579 –> 00:13:58.689

It could be, could be Jonathan Stark or something like that, but the idea

00:13:58.689 –> 00:14:04.339

that, so the idea is, you know, if you already have great ideas and you've

00:14:04.369 –> 00:14:09.879

thought a lot about your topic and you've maybe written about it, then using AI

00:14:09.989 –> 00:14:11.999

can really speed up what you're doing.

00:14:12.309 –> 00:14:14.739

But if you're not at that stage, then it may be.

00:14:15.079 –> 00:14:19.199

Potentially going to damage the journey that's that's a real concern for me for

00:14:19.199 –> 00:14:23.029

somebody who's trying to become an expert on an authority in their field, which

00:14:23.029 –> 00:14:23.929

is something that I think a lot about.

00:14:24.279 –> 00:14:25.089

How do you think about that?

00:14:25.929 –> 00:14:27.789

Joe: Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly, right?

00:14:27.799 –> 00:14:28.479

And like I have.

00:14:28.629 –> 00:14:30.609

So I have three small kids, right?

00:14:31.329 –> 00:14:37.969

There are 63 and two, um, my three year old.

00:14:38.964 –> 00:14:45.404

Can do, can do thing, more things at three than my oldest could do at three.

00:14:45.914 –> 00:14:48.754

And it's not about aptitude and it's not about skill.

00:14:49.454 –> 00:14:54.234

It's that my wife and I did more for our oldest because we

00:14:54.234 –> 00:14:55.754

didn't think she could do it.

00:14:55.764 –> 00:14:59.414

So we just did it for her instead of telling her to do

00:14:59.414 –> 00:15:01.114

it herself or try it herself.

00:15:01.954 –> 00:15:08.204

Whereas, we learned, and with our son, he tries to, he tries to do something first.

00:15:08.204 –> 00:15:09.734

We make him try to do it first.

00:15:10.364 –> 00:15:12.454

And so he developed the skill faster.

00:15:13.184 –> 00:15:16.744

So when you're talking about, you know, using AI to do things.

00:15:17.244 –> 00:15:20.774

Instead of doing it yourself, that's exactly what I thought of.

00:15:21.564 –> 00:15:24.984

If I'm tying my shoes for my daughter, she's never going

00:15:24.984 –> 00:15:26.124

to learn how to tie her shoes.

00:15:28.494 –> 00:15:34.754

Alastair: So then the question becomes, well, what if we have a society, and we'll

00:15:34.754 –> 00:15:38.934

take that analogy, where we have machines that will just tie our shoes for us?

00:15:39.979 –> 00:15:41.569

And it's super simple and very quick.

00:15:41.579 –> 00:15:43.319

Do we ever need to learn how to tie our shoes?

00:15:44.679 –> 00:15:46.559

Joe: Yeah, that's a good question.

00:15:46.609 –> 00:15:46.859

Right.

00:15:46.879 –> 00:15:49.739

Or maybe we just all wear Crocs like in the movie Idiocracy.

00:15:49.769 –> 00:15:50.079

Right.

00:15:50.629 –> 00:15:55.039

Um, which Crocs was not known when that movie was made.

00:15:55.039 –> 00:15:55.779

I don't know if you know this.

00:15:55.779 –> 00:15:56.699

Here's a quick tangent.

00:15:57.039 –> 00:16:05.619

Uh, Uh, the wardrobe designer for Idiocracy was looking for just kind

00:16:05.619 –> 00:16:08.599

of generic futuristic looking shoes and they found this little known

00:16:08.599 –> 00:16:12.659

company, um, and it was Crocs.

00:16:13.179 –> 00:16:16.749

And they're like, these, nobody will wear these ever, like they're so hideous.

00:16:16.809 –> 00:16:18.769

And now they're probably the most common shoe.

00:16:19.259 –> 00:16:21.635

Um, everybody in my house has

00:16:21.635 –> 00:16:21.799

Alastair: them.

00:16:22.259 –> 00:16:22.939

Yeah, the product

00:16:22.939 –> 00:16:23.699

Joe: placement that did it.

00:16:23.979 –> 00:16:26.329

No, it wasn't, it like wasn't even product placement.

00:16:26.329 –> 00:16:30.269

She just sourced the shoes for the movie.

00:16:30.679 –> 00:16:31.399

Crazy, right?

00:16:31.789 –> 00:16:36.499

Um, so I mean maybe the movie helped it get big, but it was not known, and

00:16:36.499 –> 00:16:38.239

the wardrobe designer didn't think.

00:16:38.734 –> 00:16:39.944

Anybody would be wearing them.

00:16:39.944 –> 00:16:41.244

That's why they went with those shoes.

00:16:41.654 –> 00:16:43.804

Um, point being, right.

00:16:44.094 –> 00:16:47.944

Uh, my father in law thinks a lot about that with maps, right?

00:16:47.944 –> 00:16:51.314

He like knows how to read a real map and I don't.

00:16:52.714 –> 00:16:56.414

Um, and you know, he's like, if an EMP ever goes off.

00:16:57.419 –> 00:16:59.019

Most of the world is screwed.

00:16:59.169 –> 00:17:01.039

Unlike me, wholeheartedly.

00:17:01.049 –> 00:17:02.929

Like, if computers didn't exist, I'd be dead.

00:17:03.009 –> 00:17:03.599

Basically.

00:17:04.139 –> 00:17:07.589

Um, And so, I think a lot about that, right?

00:17:07.589 –> 00:17:13.549

Like, are we moving towards some futuristic, like, WALL E esque world

00:17:13.959 –> 00:17:17.579

where we're all in, like, these movable chairs and we're all fat and just watching

00:17:17.579 –> 00:17:20.359

TV because we don't need to do anything because machines do it all for us.

00:17:21.409 –> 00:17:23.349

Like, do we lose humanity at that point?

00:17:23.389 –> 00:17:25.049

Like, do we lose our humanity at that point?

00:17:26.299 –> 00:17:26.639

Alastair: Yeah.

00:17:26.639 –> 00:17:29.319

And, uh, you know, I mean, maybe that's just beyond the scope

00:17:29.319 –> 00:17:31.559

of what we're talking about because it's just, that's like,

00:17:31.899 –> 00:17:32.409

Joe: that's so far.

00:17:32.659 –> 00:17:32.869

Yeah.

00:17:32.869 –> 00:17:35.499

That's a real heavy, to get that heavy.

00:17:36.069 –> 00:17:41.369

Alastair: Um, but I mean, like, I'm sure that people said the same thing when

00:17:41.379 –> 00:17:43.189

the calculator was created, you know?

00:17:43.599 –> 00:17:46.369

Oh, people aren't going to do maths in their head anymore.

00:17:46.369 –> 00:17:47.759

And that's, you know, that's.

00:17:49.974 –> 00:17:55.784

Uh, I even heard somebody talking about, I think it was Erasmus, the philosopher,

00:17:56.274 –> 00:18:01.474

uh, and mathematician, uh, complained when the printing press was invented

00:18:01.834 –> 00:18:07.234

that there was going to be too much content created and that the quality

00:18:07.234 –> 00:18:12.254

of content was go, was going to, uh, be mediocre and that, that it would be harder

00:18:12.254 –> 00:18:14.094

for good quality content to surface.

00:18:14.849 –> 00:18:17.659

And that was, you know, when was that?

00:18:17.659 –> 00:18:18.579

The 1600s.

00:18:18.989 –> 00:18:22.109

So, um, I'm showing my, my terrible history here with

00:18:22.109 –> 00:18:22.909

not knowing the date of that.

00:18:22.969 –> 00:18:23.559

No, that's

00:18:23.559 –> 00:18:23.819

accurate

00:18:23.919 –> 00:18:24.119

Joe: though.

00:18:24.389 –> 00:18:25.759

Uh, I'm sorry.

00:18:25.789 –> 00:18:27.969

No, it was the 1400s.

00:18:28.019 –> 00:18:32.569

The printing press was invented like the same year Leonardo da Vinci was born.

00:18:32.609 –> 00:18:35.799

And I only know that cause I just started reading Walter Isaacson's

00:18:35.819 –> 00:18:37.279

book on Leonardo da Vinci.

00:18:37.564 –> 00:18:37.804

Alastair: Yes.

00:18:37.814 –> 00:18:38.294

Right.

00:18:38.654 –> 00:18:39.954

And he's a fascinating character.

00:18:40.014 –> 00:18:45.034

And, and, uh, I've been in his house that he had in, um, in France.

00:18:45.384 –> 00:18:49.784

Uh, he, he lived beside the French King in, um, in the lower valley.

00:18:50.044 –> 00:18:50.554

Oh yeah.

00:18:50.564 –> 00:18:52.054

Fascinating place to visit.

00:18:52.374 –> 00:18:53.814

Um, but now that's a tangent.

00:18:54.174 –> 00:19:00.554

So the, so whenever this new technology has come along, people, people are saying,

00:19:00.574 –> 00:19:05.626

okay, the, you know, the, the end is nigh, but let's talk about the practicalities.

00:19:05.626 –> 00:19:06.059

Yes.

00:19:06.739 –> 00:19:12.209

The, the situation where somebody wants to use AI to write when,

00:19:12.359 –> 00:19:13.839

when is it a good idea to use it?

00:19:13.839 –> 00:19:15.249

When is it not a good idea to use it?

00:19:17.299 –> 00:19:20.759

Joe: Yeah, I think, I think like with any technology we are learning.

00:19:20.769 –> 00:19:21.939

We're learning, right?

00:19:22.529 –> 00:19:24.269

It's a new technology.

00:19:24.699 –> 00:19:31.099

And so, uh, just like when phones first came out, it didn't have all

00:19:31.099 –> 00:19:37.159

of the screen time, focus, filters, parental controls that we have now.

00:19:38.049 –> 00:19:42.709

So we're definitely in like the, call it the AI renaissance.

00:19:42.954 –> 00:19:46.154

Maybe we're all trying to, maybe it's pre Renaissance, right?

00:19:46.154 –> 00:19:48.244

Cause Renaissance is like the really good age, right?

00:19:48.244 –> 00:19:51.894

But so we're like pre Renaissance, we're just trying stuff now.

00:19:52.784 –> 00:20:02.084

Um, and so I'm taking a very hard line skepticism of people who say, Oh yeah,

00:20:02.364 –> 00:20:04.524

you can literally use AI for anything.

00:20:05.354 –> 00:20:08.864

Because I think that what we can't use AI for is, is anything

00:20:08.864 –> 00:20:10.644

that requires the human element.

00:20:11.304 –> 00:20:14.014

telling stories, writing, right?

00:20:14.364 –> 00:20:16.964

If I just want, here's an example, right?

00:20:17.014 –> 00:20:18.194

I tried this, right?

00:20:18.204 –> 00:20:20.334

Cause I'm not just like someone who says, don't do it.

00:20:20.334 –> 00:20:21.374

And I'm not going to try it.

00:20:21.374 –> 00:20:21.904

I'm going to try it.

00:20:21.934 –> 00:20:25.624

So I wrote a primer for AI.

00:20:25.644 –> 00:20:26.874

So I prompted.

00:20:27.404 –> 00:20:32.234

Chat GPT for, and I said, write me a 700 word blog post, basically

00:20:32.234 –> 00:20:34.744

explaining AI and large language models.

00:20:35.424 –> 00:20:37.344

And like, obviously it got the facts right.

00:20:37.614 –> 00:20:40.374

I knew the facts already because I had done my own research.

00:20:41.014 –> 00:20:43.894

Um, I had done my own reading on the topic.

00:20:44.334 –> 00:20:48.204

Uh, but it was just like a flat telling of what AI is.

00:20:48.204 –> 00:20:49.974

And so I had to punch it up.

00:20:49.974 –> 00:20:54.784

I talked about Star Wars and I added my own personal anecdotes.

00:20:55.284 –> 00:20:57.934

And what I kept from that blog post.

00:20:58.559 –> 00:21:03.579

Was basically like two bulleted lists, uh, of like what large language

00:21:03.589 –> 00:21:08.149

models are and, and some ideas that you, that you could use for them.

00:21:09.629 –> 00:21:12.889

Did I, did I write that blog post?

00:21:12.959 –> 00:21:16.549

I wrote, I don't know, 90 percent of it.

00:21:17.549 –> 00:21:23.909

Um, and so would people read it if I just took what ChatGPT

00:21:23.909 –> 00:21:26.669

gave me and, and published it?

00:21:27.319 –> 00:21:30.239

I don't think so, because there's no hook.

00:21:30.279 –> 00:21:31.729

There's nothing that grabbed me.

00:21:33.554 –> 00:21:35.224

Alastair: So what if you asked it to add a hook?

00:21:36.894 –> 00:21:38.724

Joe: It still wouldn't be my hook, right?

00:21:38.874 –> 00:21:39.684

Like it would be like,

00:21:39.954 –> 00:21:41.704

Alastair: Then you can say, you know, I don't like that hook.

00:21:41.714 –> 00:21:42.804

Give me three other options.

00:21:42.844 –> 00:21:46.094

What about using the hook that does something else and suggest one?

00:21:47.794 –> 00:21:49.814

Joe: It's still not me writing it.

00:21:49.894 –> 00:21:50.124

Right.

00:21:50.124 –> 00:21:51.544

It's still not my voice.

00:21:51.894 –> 00:21:52.184

Right.

00:21:52.214 –> 00:21:52.814

And so

00:21:52.834 –> 00:21:53.664

Alastair: you see that that's.

00:21:54.019 –> 00:21:54.729

That's the question.

00:21:54.729 –> 00:21:59.029

I mean, you can, like the way that I use it, I use it in a very iterative way.

00:21:59.739 –> 00:22:03.999

So I'll get feet, I'll, I'll get output and I'll say, um, I

00:22:04.009 –> 00:22:05.339

don't like that call to action.

00:22:05.339 –> 00:22:06.669

I don't like that opening hook.

00:22:06.969 –> 00:22:09.449

I suggest me another hook or use this as a hook.

00:22:10.124 –> 00:22:12.214

And, and am I not then writing

00:22:12.214 –> 00:22:12.424

Joe: it?

00:22:13.194 –> 00:22:14.944

No, I don't think you are.

00:22:15.004 –> 00:22:16.624

You're telling someone else to write it.

00:22:18.054 –> 00:22:20.204

The chat GPT is basically your ghost writer.

00:22:20.994 –> 00:22:21.384

Alastair: Yeah.

00:22:21.384 –> 00:22:22.944

So, I mean, that's the question.

00:22:22.944 –> 00:22:26.434

And like, I think they're like, there becomes, there becomes a line.

00:22:26.434 –> 00:22:28.434

And I think that this is a spectrum where.

00:22:29.034 –> 00:22:31.564

If you iterate on something enough times and ask for enough changes,

00:22:31.564 –> 00:22:33.084

that it becomes your words.

00:22:33.154 –> 00:22:33.894

I mean, it has to,

00:22:35.144 –> 00:22:36.424

Joe: but they're not your words,

00:22:37.494 –> 00:22:37.864

Alastair: right?

00:22:37.864 –> 00:22:40.114

Well, I don't know about that.

00:22:40.114 –> 00:22:41.364

I mean, it's someone else's

00:22:41.364 –> 00:22:42.004

Joe: words.

00:22:42.614 –> 00:22:46.544

That you extracted from the large language model.

00:22:47.504 –> 00:22:53.494

Alastair: Yeah, so, I mean, the, I mean, I guess this is where we disagree, because

00:22:53.704 –> 00:22:57.874

I think that at some point, like, it's a question of what are you feeding in?

00:22:58.279 –> 00:23:01.279

Like what are the instructions and how detailed are those instructions you're

00:23:01.279 –> 00:23:05.999

feeding in, in terms of asking you to generate something, because some

00:23:05.999 –> 00:23:11.039

people will feed in a one line prompt, some people will feed in a 10 line

00:23:11.039 –> 00:23:16.749

prompt, some people will will feed in a five line prompt, and you know, 3000

00:23:16.759 –> 00:23:18.589

words that they've already written.

00:23:18.894 –> 00:23:23.364

Generated somehow, for example, both of us, uh, probably generate a lot of words

00:23:23.364 –> 00:23:26.074

through, uh, through podcast transcripts.

00:23:26.854 –> 00:23:32.204

So we could take the transcript of this conversation and I could say, just pull

00:23:32.204 –> 00:23:35.024

out Alistair's side of this conversation.

00:23:35.554 –> 00:23:39.724

Now go through Alistair's, uh, what Alistair said and summarize that.

00:23:39.724 –> 00:23:40.904

Give me a detailed summary of that.

00:23:41.204 –> 00:23:43.644

Now write that as a blog post, right?

00:23:43.644 –> 00:23:45.894

Are you saying that's, that's me writing that or not writing

00:23:45.894 –> 00:23:45.994

Joe: that?

00:23:45.994 –> 00:23:46.129

Okay.

00:23:49.279 –> 00:23:51.579

No, I wouldn't say you're writing it.

00:23:51.729 –> 00:23:54.399

I would say it's your words being used, right?

00:23:54.889 –> 00:23:57.069

Alastair: You see, that to me sounds like semantics because…

00:23:57.309 –> 00:24:00.379

Joe: But it's the difference between like a biography and an autobiography, right?

00:24:03.279 –> 00:24:08.589

Alastair: Um, yeah, I guess maybe we're not going to agree

00:24:08.589 –> 00:24:10.429

on this because I think that…

00:24:10.559 –> 00:24:14.989

Having a biography, I guess it's kind of like maybe it's an authorized

00:24:15.029 –> 00:24:17.819

biography where the, where the person is standing over the shoulder of the

00:24:17.819 –> 00:24:19.369

writer and saying, Hey, yes, I do.

00:24:19.369 –> 00:24:20.109

Or I don't, you know?

00:24:20.349 –> 00:24:20.759

Right.

00:24:20.759 –> 00:24:21.099

Joe: Yeah.

00:24:21.179 –> 00:24:21.989

I, yeah.

00:24:22.009 –> 00:24:22.269

Right.

00:24:22.309 –> 00:24:25.769

Isaacson interviewed, uh, he didn't interview Steve jobs early in our da

00:24:25.769 –> 00:24:31.549

Vinci, obviously, but he interviewed a bunch of people who knew him and then has

00:24:31.559 –> 00:24:36.099

footage and all this and put something together for the Steve jobs book.

00:24:36.099 –> 00:24:36.509

We'll say.

00:24:37.259 –> 00:24:39.489

I wouldn't, even though a lot of those words are probably

00:24:39.489 –> 00:24:42.409

Steve Jobs and it's his life, I wouldn't say Steve Jobs wrote that.

00:24:43.199 –> 00:24:43.669

Yeah.

00:24:43.869 –> 00:24:45.269

Alastair: So, so, okay.

00:24:46.619 –> 00:24:50.169

Apart from the fact that we, we maybe, uh, are in disagreement over that,

00:24:50.559 –> 00:24:54.779

where I think it's important is, is like right now, this is not that important.

00:24:54.829 –> 00:24:59.119

I think because The words that it's generating without any editing are

00:24:59.119 –> 00:25:00.999

just not good enough to pass for human.

00:25:01.759 –> 00:25:04.569

Yeah, we, we, we wholly agree on that.

00:25:04.619 –> 00:25:04.929

Yes.

00:25:04.979 –> 00:25:10.799

But at some point they will, at some point it's going to get good enough for us to,

00:25:10.999 –> 00:25:15.919

to not be able to tell, or for, you know, 99 percent of us not to be able to tell.

00:25:16.304 –> 00:25:16.654

Right.

00:25:17.414 –> 00:25:19.164

Joe: I think you're probably right about that.

00:25:20.024 –> 00:25:23.154

Alastair: And then we have other things that come along like custom GPTs.

00:25:23.184 –> 00:25:26.034

I did a live stream about this last week where I made a custom

00:25:26.034 –> 00:25:28.144

uploaded four of my books to it.

00:25:28.794 –> 00:25:34.284

So I now have a custom chat GPT bot that knows what I've said about a

00:25:34.284 –> 00:25:36.704

topic and knows my writing style.

00:25:37.304 –> 00:25:42.544

So if I then say, you know, um, give me a, you know, give me a blog post about this

00:25:42.544 –> 00:25:44.314

topic based on what I wrote in that book.

00:25:45.139 –> 00:25:49.839

It's able to create a new blog post that kind of synthesizes the ideas from that.

00:25:50.599 –> 00:25:53.799

And it's, and it's going to be in a fairly close, it's still not going

00:25:53.799 –> 00:25:56.299

to be perfect, but it's going to be fairly close to what I said.

00:25:58.679 –> 00:26:01.669

Joe: It's going to be, yeah, it's going to be fairly close to what you said, but

00:26:01.669 –> 00:26:07.709

it's not going to be what, it might not be what Alistair in 2023 would write.

00:26:08.759 –> 00:26:11.399

Because since you wrote those books, I know one, you just wrote

00:26:11.459 –> 00:26:15.199

around this time last year, but those previous books will say.

00:26:15.774 –> 00:26:17.654

You were a different person, right?

00:26:17.654 –> 00:26:19.964

Some people say that we change every two years, right?

00:26:20.004 –> 00:26:22.034

Like yeah, you look back at yourself two years ago, and you

00:26:22.044 –> 00:26:23.164

feel like you're a different person.

00:26:23.674 –> 00:26:30.264

So That's where AI and chat GPT will always fail, right?

00:26:30.294 –> 00:26:35.079

It could have all the words I've ever written But when I'm 40 years old,

00:26:35.079 –> 00:26:42.049

two years from now, I'm gonna have an A preteen and two and two other small

00:26:42.049 –> 00:26:44.569

children and I might be living in a different house and I'll have a bunch of

00:26:44.569 –> 00:26:50.449

different life experiences that I will use to relate my ideas to other people.

00:26:51.439 –> 00:26:54.829

And so I think I wanna, I wanna say this thought before I lose it, because when

00:26:54.829 –> 00:26:59.659

you were talking about prompting and iterating, it's the, I think that's the

00:26:59.659 –> 00:27:01.699

difference between like being a visionary.

00:27:02.784 –> 00:27:04.854

And being the actual worker, right?

00:27:04.914 –> 00:27:05.854

Steve again.

00:27:05.874 –> 00:27:07.424

Well, I'll just use Steve Jobs again.

00:27:07.424 –> 00:27:12.794

I guess Steve Jobs was a visionary for the iPhone, but no one would ever say

00:27:12.804 –> 00:27:15.524

he physically made the iPhone, right?

00:27:18.194 –> 00:27:20.394

Because he, he got it.

00:27:20.394 –> 00:27:21.154

He tested it.

00:27:21.174 –> 00:27:27.514

A bunch of people provided feedback and the iPhone that came out was

00:27:28.114 –> 00:27:30.554

from innovations from engineers.

00:27:31.384 –> 00:27:34.394

And it was really the first thing of its kind to take

00:27:34.394 –> 00:27:36.064

this example one step further.

00:27:36.709 –> 00:27:38.669

You saw a lot of copycats after that, right?

00:27:38.669 –> 00:27:41.869

That weren't as good as the iPhone or whatever.

00:27:41.869 –> 00:27:43.339

Pick your favorite phone, I guess.

00:27:43.689 –> 00:27:50.049

Um, weren't as good as the iPhone, uh, but were imitations based on

00:27:50.049 –> 00:27:51.599

what they knew about the iPhone.

00:27:52.139 –> 00:27:54.249

So I, I, I'm.

00:27:54.499 –> 00:28:01.689

Maybe pulling together an analogy here, um, that's not, that's kind of

00:28:01.709 –> 00:28:05.289

half baked, but, you know, I think it's kind of the difference between,

00:28:05.289 –> 00:28:08.629

like, the visionary doing the work, and then, like, copying the original work.

00:28:10.249 –> 00:28:15.449

Alastair: Yeah, so, I guess, I'm, like, I'm trying to, I'm still trying to figure

00:28:15.449 –> 00:28:22.039

this out, because, for example, I, when I drive, I sometimes narrate and record

00:28:22.039 –> 00:28:27.479

or dictate, and quite often I will do that into the otter app on my phone.

00:28:27.789 –> 00:28:29.089

Joe: So I use audio pen.

00:28:29.149 –> 00:28:29.499

Yeah.

00:28:29.639 –> 00:28:29.909

Alastair: Yeah.

00:28:30.529 –> 00:28:35.359

And so what I'll do is I'll, I'll record some stuff in there and I'll like, that

00:28:35.359 –> 00:28:38.689

might be an idea for a blog post or it could be for a podcast episode or just

00:28:38.689 –> 00:28:41.049

something about my to do for, for the day.

00:28:41.664 –> 00:28:45.354

But quite often I'll take that text and run it through chat GPT and

00:28:45.354 –> 00:28:49.094

I'll say, clean this up, uh, give it to me in bullet points or give

00:28:49.094 –> 00:28:50.334

it to me in the form of a table.

00:28:50.694 –> 00:28:52.734

Um, you know, I asked her for that today.

00:28:52.734 –> 00:28:56.534

I was, I was looking at updating a product and I said, I want, I want

00:28:56.584 –> 00:28:59.904

you to give me the, you know, the new pricing and the new, uh, product

00:28:59.914 –> 00:29:01.374

features in the, in the form of a table.

00:29:02.234 –> 00:29:08.564

So that, that kind of thing, like where I'm dictating in, like I

00:29:08.564 –> 00:29:09.764

feel, well, that's me writing.

00:29:10.519 –> 00:29:16.769

You know, um, even if it does some significant cleanup, those ideas are still

00:29:16.769 –> 00:29:21.589

coming from me and not only that, but when it's doing the cleanup, the cleanup that

00:29:21.589 –> 00:29:23.939

it's doing is based on my suggestions.

00:29:23.939 –> 00:29:26.999

It's not like it's coming up with, if I say, you know what I want you

00:29:26.999 –> 00:29:29.489

to, uh, you know, that's too wordy.

00:29:29.619 –> 00:29:33.509

Like the one I like, I always say, make it more concise, more directly

00:29:33.509 –> 00:29:35.699

written and remove filler and fluff.

00:29:35.854 –> 00:29:36.044

Right.

00:29:36.284 –> 00:29:39.454

And when it does that, lo and behold, it starts to sound a lot more like I write.

00:29:39.834 –> 00:29:42.544

And I don't know if that's because of like, I write more, more tersely because

00:29:42.544 –> 00:29:47.014

of an engineering background or whatever, but I tend not to write in, in, in that

00:29:47.014 –> 00:29:48.494

kind of way where it's quite wordy.

00:29:48.894 –> 00:29:54.034

So, but, but I feel like I am writing when I, when I, when I give it those

00:29:54.034 –> 00:30:01.674

instructions, because what's coming out is my ideas in my voice, sounding like me.

00:30:02.229 –> 00:30:06.879

Uh, and, and has been edited by me, maybe through an, an iterative editing

00:30:06.879 –> 00:30:08.939

process where I talk to the AI.

00:30:09.109 –> 00:30:13.859

And by the way, quite literally, I mean, uh, I use chat GPT on my phone where I

00:30:13.869 –> 00:30:15.579

use the voice dictation input feature.

00:30:15.899 –> 00:30:19.149

So quite often I'm actually having a conversation literally

00:30:19.179 –> 00:30:20.209

where I'm speaking to it.

00:30:20.729 –> 00:30:24.199

Uh, and, and yet I feel like I'm writing that and, and I think that maybe this

00:30:24.209 –> 00:30:28.149

is a semantics thing, but, uh, you know, do you, do you disagree with me?

00:30:30.459 –> 00:30:33.789

Joe: I, well, they're definitely your ideas.

00:30:34.064 –> 00:30:34.534

Right.

00:30:35.104 –> 00:30:40.064

I would, when I do this with audio patent, right, and maybe

00:30:40.064 –> 00:30:41.464

I'm not using the right tool.

00:30:41.514 –> 00:30:41.854

Right.

00:30:42.504 –> 00:30:49.744

Um, I never feel like what it comes up with is suitably me.

00:30:49.984 –> 00:30:50.314

Right.

00:30:50.354 –> 00:30:54.874

It takes what I say, and it turns it into some language.

00:30:55.364 –> 00:30:57.954

And if it's just like a social post, like, maybe I don't care.

00:30:58.004 –> 00:30:59.164

Maybe I'll just throw that up.

00:30:59.754 –> 00:31:06.049

But I have very rarely felt like what I got back from an AI Was something

00:31:06.049 –> 00:31:11.569

that I felt I couldn't have done a better job writing or editing, right?

00:31:11.569 –> 00:31:16.659

And so, um, this is probably, this is obviously very subjective.

00:31:17.299 –> 00:31:25.289

Um, I think that, I think that if you are dictating the words, Right?

00:31:25.289 –> 00:31:26.499

This could be semantics, right?

00:31:26.519 –> 00:31:29.619

If you listen to a bunch of books on Audible, are you reading those books?

00:31:30.599 –> 00:31:30.939

Right?

00:31:30.979 –> 00:31:32.529

Or like you're cheating a little bit, right?

00:31:32.529 –> 00:31:34.839

Because like you can listen to it at 1x and you're hearing it

00:31:34.839 –> 00:31:39.509

faster than, than you're reading it and maybe, but maybe you're not

00:31:39.509 –> 00:31:41.659

comprehending it as well either, right?

00:31:41.659 –> 00:31:46.959

So, um, Like, I think that we need to consider what we're

00:31:46.959 –> 00:31:48.219

losing with the shortcut.

00:31:48.979 –> 00:31:53.229

And so if you're dictating and iterating and you eventually get

00:31:53.229 –> 00:31:58.749

something that's good, what have you given up to get to that point?

00:31:59.809 –> 00:32:03.139

I think that's probably, and that's gonna be

00:32:03.189 –> 00:32:04.069

Alastair: different for everybody.

00:32:04.809 –> 00:32:08.289

So, right, to take the argument that you made an argument, which

00:32:08.289 –> 00:32:11.769

is effectively The output that I've seen so far isn't good enough.

00:32:12.179 –> 00:32:16.359

Now, my counterpoint to that is, that's irrelevant because at some

00:32:16.359 –> 00:32:17.999

point soon it will be good enough.

00:32:18.049 –> 00:32:20.939

Whether that's chat GPT 5 or GPT 4.

00:32:20.959 –> 00:32:22.399

1 or whatever.

00:32:22.689 –> 00:32:27.139

At some point that output is probably going to be good enough for, you know,

00:32:27.219 –> 00:32:33.584

99 percent of Of uses now, I think that, you know, there's always going

00:32:33.584 –> 00:32:37.644

to be that last, the last 1 percent that it's, it's never going to going

00:32:37.644 –> 00:32:41.164

to, um, that it's never going to get to in terms of quality of output.

00:32:41.164 –> 00:32:43.684

Now, what I'm talking about here, by the way, is in writing style.

00:32:44.094 –> 00:32:50.769

Uh, I think that in terms of actually formulating and having new ideas, And

00:32:50.769 –> 00:32:52.769

synthesizing new ideas from nothing.

00:32:53.109 –> 00:32:56.709

I think that that's like, that's not generative AI.

00:32:56.709 –> 00:32:59.949

That's not, you know, chat GPT and those models, there might be some

00:32:59.949 –> 00:33:03.809

other type of, of AI that comes along and can do that, but, but that's not

00:33:03.809 –> 00:33:04.759

really what we're talking about here.

00:33:04.759 –> 00:33:04.999

Right.

00:33:06.269 –> 00:33:06.639

Joe: Right.

00:33:06.639 –> 00:33:06.879

Yeah.

00:33:06.879 –> 00:33:11.949

And in this moment, right, the thing I'm running with now is, is you talking at

00:33:11.949 –> 00:33:15.719

an AI and coming up with some writing and then you iterating over that.

00:33:15.719 –> 00:33:15.909

Right.

00:33:16.479 –> 00:33:17.369

I think you're probably right.

00:33:17.369 –> 00:33:17.489

Right.

00:33:17.519 –> 00:33:21.809

Especially with these GP, like these custom GPTs, I could feed.

00:33:22.399 –> 00:33:28.299

One, I've been writing on the internet for 20 years, right?

00:33:28.379 –> 00:33:33.659

Now, the way I wrote in 20, in 2003, was very bad.

00:33:34.879 –> 00:33:38.739

Uh, so maybe I give it the last five years of me writing.

00:33:39.749 –> 00:33:42.899

It's probably gonna do a pretty good job.

00:33:43.609 –> 00:33:45.699

A pretty decent facsimile.

00:33:46.109 –> 00:33:52.539

Of how I would write something right and I still wouldn't say I wrote

00:33:52.539 –> 00:33:54.709

it because I didn't write it right.

00:33:54.869 –> 00:34:00.219

It's I covered the 26 miles, but I didn't run it.

00:34:00.599 –> 00:34:02.539

So I shouldn't be celebrated for it.

00:34:02.889 –> 00:34:04.529

I think that's the big thing,

00:34:05.129 –> 00:34:05.489

Alastair: right?

00:34:05.519 –> 00:34:05.829

Yeah.

00:34:06.299 –> 00:34:10.829

And so for me, if I, if I dictate for an hour.

00:34:10.999 –> 00:34:13.369

As I'm driving on a topic, right?

00:34:13.379 –> 00:34:18.809

And let's say I dictate an hour is about, um, like 000 words, something like that.

00:34:18.809 –> 00:34:22.479

Maybe, maybe not, not that many, but in a somewhere around that, right.

00:34:22.549 –> 00:34:25.779

And if I dictate for an hour about a topic and I, and I come up,

00:34:25.779 –> 00:34:27.059

but let's say it's 8, 000 words.

00:34:27.409 –> 00:34:27.619

Yeah.

00:34:27.619 –> 00:34:31.319

And then I put that through generative AI, it mightn't go through chat,

00:34:31.319 –> 00:34:32.449

GPT might be too much for that.

00:34:32.819 –> 00:34:37.869

Um, but I boil that down and I clean that up and I use it to reformat it and put in

00:34:37.869 –> 00:34:39.969

the nice headings and things like that.

00:34:40.624 –> 00:34:41.904

My argument is I wrote that.

00:34:42.564 –> 00:34:43.894

Those ideas came from me.

00:34:44.184 –> 00:34:48.104

The, the, the order that things came in came from me, the ideas.

00:34:48.609 –> 00:34:53.429

And the fact that I had an editor come around afterwards, humans have

00:34:53.429 –> 00:34:56.499

been doing that forever, where we've been giving content to editors and

00:34:56.499 –> 00:34:57.559

getting them to clean up after us.

00:34:57.859 –> 00:34:58.959

We're still saying we wrote it.

00:34:59.259 –> 00:34:59.489

This

00:34:59.489 –> 00:35:02.199

Joe: is the most, this is your most compelling argument, right?

00:35:03.029 –> 00:35:05.059

Because you've put in an hour's worth of work.

00:35:06.209 –> 00:35:09.079

And like, yeah, my book, my last book, right.

00:35:09.129 –> 00:35:12.239

Uh, uh, HTML and CSS, a visual quick start guide.

00:35:13.229 –> 00:35:15.079

I wrote, I say, I wrote that book.

00:35:15.419 –> 00:35:25.129

I'm the only author on that book, but my editor reworded large swaths of that book.

00:35:25.649 –> 00:35:27.659

And this was actually something I wrestled with.

00:35:27.659 –> 00:35:29.329

I was like, can I even say I wrote this?

00:35:29.329 –> 00:35:31.039

Like he rewrote this basically.

00:35:31.059 –> 00:35:32.249

Can I say I wrote it?

00:35:32.799 –> 00:35:36.959

Um, but ultimately we both like, that's the job he's in.

00:35:37.059 –> 00:35:37.389

Right.

00:35:37.579 –> 00:35:38.549

We both agreed.

00:35:39.309 –> 00:35:47.449

That I wrote it because I put together the outline, I ordered everything, I wrote the

00:35:47.449 –> 00:35:54.589

code, I put the ideas down, and then he restructured it in the format of that book

00:35:54.589 –> 00:35:55.129

Alastair: series.

00:35:56.069 –> 00:36:00.939

And the other argument there is, if you hadn't done your part, then your

00:36:01.169 –> 00:36:02.699

editor could not have done their part.

00:36:02.719 –> 00:36:03.049

You're right,

00:36:03.059 –> 00:36:04.889

Joe: he would not have been able to do his part.

00:36:05.314 –> 00:36:05.894

And,

00:36:05.974 –> 00:36:11.324

Alastair: and, and, and so the issue right now is, is I think that what we

00:36:11.324 –> 00:36:16.744

are creating with AI for the most part, if you're an expert in your field,

00:36:17.054 –> 00:36:20.824

what you are going to create with AI is going to be vastly different than

00:36:20.834 –> 00:36:25.214

somebody who is not an expert in the field because they're not going to know

00:36:25.224 –> 00:36:29.334

when it gives you some sort of mediocre, bland output that that isn't good enough.

00:36:29.504 –> 00:36:29.784

Right.

00:36:30.054 –> 00:36:32.864

Whereas an expert will look at the output and say, actually, it's missing

00:36:32.864 –> 00:36:36.694

something really fundamental or something that I feel is fundamental to my

00:36:36.694 –> 00:36:38.314

distinct point of view on this topic.

00:36:39.764 –> 00:36:43.444

And once you add that, then I think you've got something valuable.

00:36:43.694 –> 00:36:48.104

And then it, it, it, it then goes to the kind of like the value pricing

00:36:48.104 –> 00:36:52.864

versus hourly pricing discussion where, um, and, and just to summarize that

00:36:52.864 –> 00:36:57.264

really quickly, the, um, the, that argument is you shouldn't bill people.

00:36:57.924 –> 00:37:00.974

Hourly because it shouldn't matter how long something takes.

00:37:01.024 –> 00:37:04.854

It should matter how valuable the output is to to your client.

00:37:05.114 –> 00:37:10.034

And in fact, like, for example, if I'm editing a video for somebody, let's say

00:37:10.054 –> 00:37:14.534

it takes me two hours and I'm able to find a tool that lets me do it in one hour.

00:37:15.304 –> 00:37:18.574

Should I continue to do it the slow way and charge them twice as much?

00:37:18.674 –> 00:37:21.724

And that's where the ethics of hourly billing come in.

00:37:21.994 –> 00:37:25.354

And that's why Jonathan Stark talks about that on his show, Ditching Hourly.

00:37:25.674 –> 00:37:31.489

Um, but so, so in the same way, like, You know, should we avoid

00:37:31.489 –> 00:37:33.969

using these tools that help us to do these things much quicker?

00:37:34.009 –> 00:37:39.559

I mean, and, and, um, I think that there's a connection between those concepts.

00:37:39.899 –> 00:37:42.869

So I haven't articulated that very well, but I think that, you know, that

00:37:42.989 –> 00:37:47.689

the like, we shouldn't necessarily have to do things the slow way in

00:37:47.689 –> 00:37:49.679

order to claim the value of the work.

00:37:49.679 –> 00:37:51.539

It should be about the value of the output.

00:37:52.284 –> 00:37:53.224

And is this good?

00:37:53.224 –> 00:37:53.944

I put not.

00:37:54.454 –> 00:37:57.554

Did you write this or did you run the marathon manually?

00:37:58.004 –> 00:37:59.984

Like if it depends on the goal, right?

00:38:00.104 –> 00:38:03.784

If the goal is to run the marathon in order for to have the

00:38:04.034 –> 00:38:06.824

achievement of the health and the fitness, then that's one thing.

00:38:07.374 –> 00:38:09.904

If the goal is to get 26.

00:38:10.054 –> 00:38:11.519

12 miles, yeah, 26.

00:38:11.519 –> 00:38:11.644

1.

00:38:12.419 –> 00:38:13.029

Yeah.

00:38:13.029 –> 00:38:14.929

If the goal is to just travel a, to be 26.

00:38:14.929 –> 00:38:19.709

1 miles, then yeah, if we can, you know, if we, if we can use a jet pack to get

00:38:19.709 –> 00:38:22.279

there, um, we, we've got there in the end.

00:38:22.349 –> 00:38:23.919

So that's all that matters.

00:38:23.999 –> 00:38:26.459

You know, that's, that, that's my argument on that is like,

00:38:26.709 –> 00:38:28.419

it's what's the value of the

00:38:28.509 –> 00:38:29.739

Joe: 26.

00:38:29.739 –> 00:38:30.569

Alastair: 2.

00:38:30.569 –> 00:38:30.859

Okay.

00:38:30.899 –> 00:38:31.999

I should, I should know this.

00:38:31.999 –> 00:38:33.919

I volunteered at Dublin Marathon two weeks ago.

00:38:33.919 –> 00:38:42.489

Um, anyway, uh, So, so yeah, so, so for me, it's, it's like, what's the value

00:38:42.489 –> 00:38:44.949

of the output and, and is the output.

00:38:45.389 –> 00:38:49.239

And then I guess the argument is who's, who are we talking about the

00:38:49.239 –> 00:38:52.559

value to, are we talking about the value to the consumer of the, of the

00:38:52.559 –> 00:38:54.579

output or to the creator of the output?

00:38:54.579 –> 00:39:00.369

Because then it brings back in the issue of learning from the writing process.

00:39:00.869 –> 00:39:01.219

Right.

00:39:01.339 –> 00:39:02.949

And that wraps back around to what we talked about at the

00:39:02.959 –> 00:39:04.449

start learning from writing.

00:39:04.794 –> 00:39:05.484

Joe: Yes.

00:39:05.934 –> 00:39:07.594

And I, I, I think you're right.

00:39:07.644 –> 00:39:08.034

Right.

00:39:08.104 –> 00:39:11.314

Again, like if, if your goal is just to cover the distance, do whatever

00:39:11.314 –> 00:39:12.524

you need to do to cover the distance.

00:39:12.524 –> 00:39:12.764

Right.

00:39:13.254 –> 00:39:16.564

But I don't think just covering the distance.

00:39:17.019 –> 00:39:18.119

Should be celebrated.

00:39:18.119 –> 00:39:20.229

I think this is really where I'm at, right?

00:39:20.729 –> 00:39:25.659

If someone's gonna wear the badge of honor for doing a marathon, for running

00:39:25.659 –> 00:39:27.719

a marathon, then they need to run it.

00:39:28.059 –> 00:39:34.809

Just like if somebody is wearing the badge of, I authored this book, right?

00:39:35.289 –> 00:39:42.189

Then they need to Let's take your dictated example, right?

00:39:42.249 –> 00:39:44.629

I will, I will cede this point to you.

00:39:45.579 –> 00:39:49.749

They need to get all of the ideas down there.

00:39:49.789 –> 00:39:52.459

The book needs to be fully their ideas.

00:39:53.189 –> 00:39:55.529

They can't say chat GPT.

00:39:55.689 –> 00:39:57.529

I'm writing a book about podcasting.

00:39:57.839 –> 00:40:00.259

Chapter one is how to start a podcast.

00:40:00.589 –> 00:40:03.979

Right that chapter and then slap their name on it.

00:40:05.189 –> 00:40:09.529

This is I am I am Unmoving in that opinion.

00:40:10.249 –> 00:40:10.639

Alastair: Okay.

00:40:10.659 –> 00:40:14.929

So what about they say chapter one is going to be you know How to write

00:40:14.929 –> 00:40:19.699

a pot how to create a podcast here are The five sections I'm going to

00:40:19.699 –> 00:40:23.869

have in this chapter, can you think of anything I might have missed?

00:40:25.329 –> 00:40:28.839

Joe: That's ideation and I think it's, I think chat, GBT is,

00:40:28.839 –> 00:40:30.879

or AI in general is great for

00:40:30.879 –> 00:40:31.149

Alastair: that.

00:40:31.299 –> 00:40:31.569

Mm-Hmm.

00:40:32.149 –> 00:40:32.479

Yeah.

00:40:32.484 –> 00:40:35.389

And, and so what we're talking about then, like, see there's

00:40:35.389 –> 00:40:36.829

a lot of nuance to this really.

00:40:36.949 –> 00:40:37.544

There's a lot there.

00:40:37.694 –> 00:40:39.649

Joe: This argument there is just like, I, I mean like

00:40:39.654 –> 00:40:40.704

nothing's black and white, right?

00:40:40.844 –> 00:40:41.264

Mm-Hmm.

00:40:41.344 –> 00:40:43.204

like, um, but there is, right?

00:40:43.739 –> 00:40:46.019

Am I, am I cheating by wearing running shoes?

00:40:46.314 –> 00:40:47.184

In a marathon?

00:40:47.464 –> 00:40:48.034

No.

00:40:48.524 –> 00:40:49.654

It'd be crazy to run barefoot.

00:40:49.814 –> 00:40:52.834

Alastair: Do you know that there are running shoes that have these

00:40:52.854 –> 00:40:56.794

kind of composed blades of carbon that actually make you run faster?

00:40:57.084 –> 00:41:00.794

That costs lots and lots of money, but that Oh, no, I didn't know that.

00:41:00.844 –> 00:41:04.244

Yeah, they've helped them break the two hour mark on the marathon.

00:41:05.714 –> 00:41:06.024

Yeah.

00:41:06.314 –> 00:41:07.704

So, um, so there you go.

00:41:07.704 –> 00:41:08.144

I don't know.

00:41:08.284 –> 00:41:11.674

I don't know how long a marathon is, but I know that you can get shoes that,

00:41:11.864 –> 00:41:13.504

that will actually make you faster.

00:41:13.514 –> 00:41:13.804

Right.

00:41:14.174 –> 00:41:14.554

Yeah.

00:41:14.794 –> 00:41:16.484

Joe: Well, it's just like, you know, in baseball, right.

00:41:16.484 –> 00:41:19.604

Is, is taking performance enhancing drugs, cheating.

00:41:20.224 –> 00:41:22.954

Like can you, can you say you hit those, you still have the mechanics.

00:41:23.649 –> 00:41:24.199

I don't know.

00:41:24.929 –> 00:41:25.549

Yeah.

00:41:26.419 –> 00:41:26.799

Alastair: Yeah.

00:41:26.859 –> 00:41:28.249

And, and yeah, okay.

00:41:28.249 –> 00:41:30.539

That, that's a whole, a whole thing.

00:41:30.689 –> 00:41:32.079

Are we using performance enhancing

00:41:32.079 –> 00:41:32.439

Joe: AI?

00:41:32.489 –> 00:41:32.799

You know?

00:41:32.929 –> 00:41:33.169

Yeah.

00:41:33.379 –> 00:41:34.229

Yeah, exactly.

00:41:34.489 –> 00:41:34.829

So, yeah.

00:41:35.109 –> 00:41:38.639

But I would say for your example, like I use, I use chat GPT for.

00:41:39.109 –> 00:41:45.179

Ideation all the time because I'm just me and that's what it's great for, right?

00:41:45.179 –> 00:41:50.949

Because it has all of this information at your fingertips.

00:41:51.649 –> 00:41:55.029

So I think that that example is great.

00:41:55.119 –> 00:41:57.979

You're essentially in training mode at that point, right?

00:41:58.409 –> 00:41:59.979

If we're going to beat this analogy to death.

00:42:00.009 –> 00:42:04.869

Alastair: Then the next step there is, so we're using it for, we're

00:42:04.869 –> 00:42:08.429

using it for ideas and then are we.

00:42:09.599 –> 00:42:13.159

Are we using it to, uh, what's the word?

00:42:13.399 –> 00:42:18.809

Um, so, so if, if we're using it, like we're saying, Hey, oh, I forgot that.

00:42:18.839 –> 00:42:21.769

Please, please add that to the list and write a section on it.

00:42:22.609 –> 00:42:25.149

And at that point, you're saying it's moving out of ideation

00:42:25.189 –> 00:42:26.749

into writing it for you.

00:42:27.189 –> 00:42:27.409

Joe: Right.

00:42:27.419 –> 00:42:27.799

Right.

00:42:27.879 –> 00:42:30.699

Because now it's thought of it and is doing the work for you.

00:42:30.729 –> 00:42:31.049

Right.

00:42:31.389 –> 00:42:35.129

If it's just like, Oh, I forgot that like, Oh, live shows is a

00:42:35.129 –> 00:42:36.719

way to make money with podcasts.

00:42:36.759 –> 00:42:37.079

Yeah.

00:42:37.209 –> 00:42:40.209

But, and then I say, write a section on live, that's not like, that's not me

00:42:40.379 –> 00:42:40.629

Alastair: anymore.

00:42:40.639 –> 00:42:44.359

If, if you know that, if you know, live shows inside out and you get it

00:42:44.359 –> 00:42:48.455

to write that and they say, Oh, you know, and this is, this is actually

00:42:48.455 –> 00:42:53.129

my point is ultimately it should be about the human doing the QA, the

00:42:53.129 –> 00:42:55.769

quality assurance on the products.

00:42:55.999 –> 00:42:59.649

On the output and if we have the human doing the quality assurance,

00:42:59.709 –> 00:43:03.939

the key way on everything that it outputs and that human being signs

00:43:03.939 –> 00:43:08.749

off and says, yes, I, you know, I put my stamp of approval by by publishing

00:43:08.749 –> 00:43:11.049

this or doing whatever I do then.

00:43:12.504 –> 00:43:16.894

Like, surely that's, you've written it because you, you, you have brought

00:43:16.954 –> 00:43:20.874

most of the ideas to the table, you've edited it using whatever tool you

00:43:20.874 –> 00:43:25.574

used, be it, you know, a text editor or a magnet to use the ones and zeros

00:43:25.594 –> 00:43:28.514

manually, if you really want to do that, you know, but you've, you've

00:43:28.584 –> 00:43:33.514

edited it in some way and then you've, uh, you've, you've QA'd it by going

00:43:33.514 –> 00:43:34.744

over it and then you've published it.

00:43:35.299 –> 00:43:37.599

So, but, but I think, where's the,

00:43:37.679 –> 00:43:38.609

Joe: where's the line there?

00:43:38.799 –> 00:43:40.529

I, so I think at that point, right?

00:43:41.019 –> 00:43:45.019

Cause are, so let me ask you, are, are your books all self published?

00:43:45.799 –> 00:43:49.759

Alastair: Uh, I have, uh, I have one book that is hybrid.

00:43:49.939 –> 00:43:52.399

One book is commercially published and the rest are self published.

00:43:52.849 –> 00:43:53.349

Joe: Okay, cool.

00:43:53.349 –> 00:43:57.009

So, so, you know, the commercial publishing process, which is author

00:43:57.009 –> 00:43:59.639

writes the book, send it to copy editor.

00:44:00.039 –> 00:44:01.769

Or let's say prime editor one.

00:44:02.179 –> 00:44:04.589

If it's a technical book, then it goes to the technical editor.

00:44:05.089 –> 00:44:07.219

Then it goes back to prime editor and back to you.

00:44:07.219 –> 00:44:08.789

Then it goes to a second copy editor.

00:44:10.089 –> 00:44:14.449

The process you just described, in my mind, removes the author completely.

00:44:15.399 –> 00:44:16.569

ChatGPT wrote it.

00:44:16.579 –> 00:44:17.859

We're sending it to an editor.

00:44:17.859 –> 00:44:19.219

We're sending it to a tech editor.

00:44:19.219 –> 00:44:20.269

And then we

00:44:20.269 –> 00:44:20.869

Alastair: have a book.

00:44:21.529 –> 00:44:24.139

Yeah, I, I, I didn't remove it in, in my head.

00:44:24.139 –> 00:44:26.919

I didn't remove it because the person writing it was the person

00:44:26.919 –> 00:44:28.269

who gave those initial ideas.

00:44:28.509 –> 00:44:30.109

Just like in your example where.

00:44:30.324 –> 00:44:32.424

You, you wrote it and your editor fixed it.

00:44:35.064 –> 00:44:39.004

Joe: But, but like if, I mean, if I just say chat GPT, write a

00:44:39.004 –> 00:44:43.794

chapter and then I give it a quick once over and send it to my editor.

00:44:44.404 –> 00:44:45.934

Alastair: So what if it's not a quick once over?

00:44:46.244 –> 00:44:50.994

What if, what if you then say, uh, okay, section.

00:44:51.304 –> 00:44:54.784

8 should be removed.

00:44:54.784 –> 00:44:55.594

We don't need those.

00:44:55.924 –> 00:44:58.294

Um, you missed out on this topic entirely.

00:44:58.294 –> 00:44:59.644

Please add that into the list.

00:44:59.934 –> 00:45:03.084

And then I don't agree with what you said on, on section 1.

00:45:03.084 –> 00:45:03.094

4.

00:45:03.094 –> 00:45:04.434

So please update it to say this.

00:45:04.734 –> 00:45:08.744

And by the way, that's a very realistic sounding example of what I've done with.

00:45:09.069 –> 00:45:09.909

That kind of I put,

00:45:11.109 –> 00:45:14.159

Joe: I think at that point you might as well just write it yourself.

00:45:14.559 –> 00:45:18.299

Alastair: Well, you see, my argument is no, you shouldn't because then like

00:45:18.329 –> 00:45:21.839

that, that's, that's like going to the farmer and saying, Hey, get out

00:45:21.839 –> 00:45:24.919

of that tractor and here's a spade and do your entire field manually.

00:45:25.199 –> 00:45:26.909

It's so much quicker not to do that.

00:45:27.889 –> 00:45:34.309

Joe: I think it's, I think, I think that's a different knowledge.

00:45:34.459 –> 00:45:38.149

This is the hard part of what we're doing with our real world analogies, right?

00:45:39.299 –> 00:45:40.439

Knowledge work.

00:45:40.789 –> 00:45:46.009

Is very different from manual labor with knowledge work.

00:45:46.559 –> 00:45:49.359

It's, it is our knowledge that is the work.

00:45:49.609 –> 00:45:54.979

And so like by saying, chat, GBT, write something.

00:45:55.039 –> 00:45:56.309

Oh, I don't like these things.

00:45:56.309 –> 00:45:57.109

Change that.

00:45:57.669 –> 00:46:00.499

I still don't think the human did writing.

00:46:01.249 –> 00:46:03.369

They just kind of said, do, do that, right?

00:46:03.369 –> 00:46:04.219

It's the difference between the

00:46:04.219 –> 00:46:05.459

Alastair: visionary and the worker.

00:46:05.499 –> 00:46:09.009

It's it's my argument is maybe the human didn't write it, but they might as well

00:46:09.019 –> 00:46:12.539

have, because the output, the quality of the output is going to be the same.

00:46:13.304 –> 00:46:14.494

And, and I

00:46:14.544 –> 00:46:17.484

Joe: don't think the, I don't feel like the quality of the

00:46:17.484 –> 00:46:18.564

output is the same, right?

00:46:18.564 –> 00:46:25.374

Because you can't tell chat GPT, Hey, um, to drive home my point here.

00:46:25.384 –> 00:46:30.514

I want to tell a story about how, um, I refuse to record a podcast with

00:46:30.514 –> 00:46:31.904

somebody who wasn't wearing headphones.

00:46:32.439 –> 00:46:34.619

Tell that story, like I would tell it.

00:46:35.009 –> 00:46:36.559

Chat GPT could never do that.

00:46:37.209 –> 00:46:37.669

Right?

00:46:39.159 –> 00:46:42.249

Alastair: So I think, like, Unless you give it the details of the story.

00:46:42.539 –> 00:46:42.829

Unless

00:46:42.829 –> 00:46:44.039

Joe: you write the story for it.

00:46:44.449 –> 00:46:46.199

Alastair: Well, you tell it the story, right?

00:46:46.449 –> 00:46:46.969

Sure.

00:46:47.439 –> 00:46:48.529

Joe: You write it and then Joe,

00:46:48.899 –> 00:46:51.499

Alastair: this is gonna be super long if we don't agree to disagree.

00:46:52.189 –> 00:46:55.359

Joe: We're gonna, yeah, we, we Respectfully agree to disagree

00:46:55.359 –> 00:46:55.639

Alastair: here.

00:46:55.699 –> 00:46:56.079

Yeah.

00:46:56.469 –> 00:46:57.679

I'm going to bring up a comment.

00:46:57.759 –> 00:46:59.309

Uh, we have a comment on a LinkedIn.

00:47:00.149 –> 00:47:03.679

Brian, I use chat GPT to research the fundamentals of my profession,

00:47:03.679 –> 00:47:04.659

which is management consulting.

00:47:04.689 –> 00:47:07.609

In my experience, most managers have never mastered the fundamentals.

00:47:07.969 –> 00:47:10.749

Much like many people, I include myself who never measured

00:47:10.749 –> 00:47:12.229

the fundamentals of golf.

00:47:12.289 –> 00:47:20.249

Um, yeah, so, uh, Researching fundamentals and researching and learning.

00:47:20.359 –> 00:47:26.359

So learning and ideation are, are, are something that we, we certainly can agree

00:47:26.359 –> 00:47:28.329

on that we should be using it for that.

00:47:29.759 –> 00:47:30.369

Absolutely.

00:47:30.764 –> 00:47:31.144

Absolutely.

00:47:31.194 –> 00:47:35.744

I think, I think where, where we differ is the level.

00:47:35.754 –> 00:47:39.504

And I like the term assistive AI, uh, because that's the way I think

00:47:39.504 –> 00:47:42.324

that we should be using, we should be using it to the heavy lifting,

00:47:42.514 –> 00:47:44.804

like in, in the terrible analogies.

00:47:44.804 –> 00:47:47.994

And just like all analogies, no, no analogy is perfect.

00:47:47.994 –> 00:47:51.844

But I think that, uh, you know, some analogies are better than others.

00:47:51.894 –> 00:47:54.964

And it's hard to find analogies for this just because of what it is.

00:47:55.344 –> 00:47:57.384

But, you know, um, yeah.

00:47:59.604 –> 00:48:04.234

The way that I see it, we should be using it to assist us and not replace us.

00:48:04.484 –> 00:48:09.664

And I think that it's going to be a very long time before the ideas

00:48:09.834 –> 00:48:11.604

that chat GPT can come up with.

00:48:12.124 –> 00:48:17.934

Or whatever AI any generative AI comes up with on its own from it's it's learning

00:48:17.934 –> 00:48:22.224

data set, whatever it's trained on are going to match what an expert will come

00:48:22.224 –> 00:48:29.914

up with what it will do is help us to reformat and read and edit and tweak and,

00:48:30.204 –> 00:48:34.324

um, take a blog post and, Hey, I wrote a, I wrote a blog post on this and I want

00:48:34.324 –> 00:48:35.884

to fit it into the middle of this book.

00:48:36.104 –> 00:48:39.484

Can you tell me how to, uh, You know, like, what do I need to add?

00:48:39.504 –> 00:48:40.634

What do I need to remove?

00:48:40.844 –> 00:48:44.244

So that this blog post can, can then become a chapter of this book.

00:48:44.244 –> 00:48:46.574

Here's the rest of the book, something like that.

00:48:46.574 –> 00:48:49.594

I feel again, I feel, well, you wrote the blog, the blog post, you wrote the book.

00:48:49.854 –> 00:48:52.544

All you're doing is you're using it as a very smart editor.

00:48:52.854 –> 00:48:55.414

I think in that scenario that, that, that it's absolutely

00:48:55.424 –> 00:48:56.334

fine to say you wrote that.

00:48:56.864 –> 00:48:58.214

That's, that, that's my perspective on

00:48:58.214 –> 00:48:58.504

Joe: that.

00:48:59.204 –> 00:49:03.604

Yeah, I think, I think we agree on use it for a very smart

00:49:03.624 –> 00:49:06.184

editor where we disagree is.

00:49:06.474 –> 00:49:11.664

It's how hands on either the editor is or how hands on we are.

00:49:12.194 –> 00:49:14.794

Um, yeah, I, I really think that's where we differ.

00:49:14.794 –> 00:49:23.194

And for me, it's, it's really about if you're, if you're looking for me, it's

00:49:23.194 –> 00:49:27.564

really about the, the, the personal connections and experiences, right?

00:49:28.044 –> 00:49:33.004

I, we can, I'm very confident that we'll never be able to tell AI unless

00:49:33.004 –> 00:49:37.594

there's a little, unless the humane pin is becomes a little brain chip.

00:49:37.784 –> 00:49:38.234

Right?

00:49:38.674 –> 00:49:47.094

Um, Which I just scared myself, um, we'll never be able to say, Hey,

00:49:47.104 –> 00:49:48.834

here's all of my personal experience.

00:49:48.834 –> 00:49:54.094

Now tell a story the way I, I think that it's still, that's still

00:49:54.164 –> 00:49:55.874

something that is uniquely human.

00:49:56.524 –> 00:49:56.864

Alastair: Yeah.

00:49:57.214 –> 00:49:59.764

And, and like, we shouldn't want to

00:49:59.764 –> 00:50:00.054

Joe: do that.

00:50:00.284 –> 00:50:00.564

Right.

00:50:00.564 –> 00:50:01.584

Yeah, absolutely.

00:50:01.614 –> 00:50:01.824

Right.

00:50:01.834 –> 00:50:02.064

That's.

00:50:02.344 –> 00:50:05.404

Yeah, that goes back to our, when do we lose our humanity?

00:50:05.434 –> 00:50:05.724

Right.

00:50:06.344 –> 00:50:06.654

So

00:50:07.474 –> 00:50:12.444

Alastair: who got, this has been a, has been a fun one and it's a bit deep.

00:50:12.804 –> 00:50:14.804

Um, Joe, we're recording this.

00:50:14.834 –> 00:50:15.694

We're live streaming.

00:50:15.904 –> 00:50:18.964

We're recording this for my podcast, the recognized authority and for

00:50:18.964 –> 00:50:20.404

your podcast, how I built this.

00:50:20.879 –> 00:50:21.639

How I built it.

00:50:22.189 –> 00:50:26.829

Um, can you, can you tell listeners and viewers where to find you?

00:50:27.619 –> 00:50:28.069

Joe: Yeah.

00:50:28.069 –> 00:50:32.529

So you can find all of my writing over at casabona.

00:50:32.559 –> 00:50:32.939

org.

00:50:33.219 –> 00:50:35.569

And of course my podcast is called how I built it.

00:50:36.099 –> 00:50:39.689

Um, and you can find that wherever podcasts are

00:50:40.159 –> 00:50:40.599

Alastair: found.

00:50:41.229 –> 00:50:41.649

Awesome.

00:50:41.809 –> 00:50:44.089

And you can find me at the recognized authority.

00:50:44.259 –> 00:50:44.559

com.

00:50:45.009 –> 00:50:46.129

Thanks for tuning in.

00:50:46.999 –> 00:50:47.929

Joe: Thanks so much, everybody.

00:50:47.939 –> 00:50:48.609

Thanks Alistair.

00:50:49.869 –> 00:50:50.309

Alastair: Thanks Joe.

00:50:50.851 –> 00:50:51.421

Joe: All right.

00:50:51.421 –> 00:50:55.141

I really hope you enjoyed that ad free bonus episode.

00:50:55.711 –> 00:50:57.391

Of how I built it.

00:50:57.841 –> 00:50:59.611

Slash the recognized authority.

00:51:00.091 –> 00:51:05.551

Uh, you can find allister@therecognizedauthority.com.

00:51:05.581 –> 00:51:08.581

I'll put that in the description for this episode, and I'd

00:51:08.581 –> 00:51:10.381

love to hear what you think.

00:51:10.651 –> 00:51:14.371

Let me know your thoughts on AI in writing what you thought about my

00:51:14.371 –> 00:51:16.051

arguments and Alistair's arguments.

00:51:16.051 –> 00:51:20.281

You can find me on most social media at J Casabona, or you

00:51:20.281 –> 00:51:24.901

can email me joe@casabona.org, but that's it for this episode.

00:51:24.901 –> 00:51:26.071

Thanks so much for listening.

00:51:26.071 –> 00:51:27.091

And until next time.

00:51:27.421 –> 00:51:29.491

I get out there and build something.